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Eddy



Joined: Aug 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 00:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok, so i've recently been trying to play Wood Elves in the box.

The first team got retired after it faced Khemri in its 4th game. Obviously, not taking into account that there were only 9 elves against 12 Khemri.

The second team just got badly beaten up, being faced with a full squad of Orcs (with 2 DPs) while only being 9 as well.
Of course, i was trashed. This time, i managed to win the game, largely thanks to my opponent, who would rather foul the 3 remaining elves than try to score twice in 5 turns. The team is in very bad shape though, and i'm wondering if it's worth the trouble to try and recover them, when i know i could be facing another DP-heavy bashy team.

For the record, that team played, in order :
Vampire, Dwarf, Chaos, Khemri, Necromantic, Undead, Ogre, Dwarf, Orc.

I was just talking this afternoon with a coach, who said that most coaches in [B] played bashers because they lacked "cojones". I told him i disagreed, and that plenty played bashers because of the number of ruthlessly bashy teams here. Well, i think this goes to show in part why there are a lot of bashers. Something needs to be done to prevent this "undermanned, low-AV team meets full-squad-and-more bashy team".

_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou
Bytez0r



Joined: May 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 00:22 Reply with quote Back to top

well obviously high av teams will have more players then low av teams, allso - high av teams tend to be basher teams, since they outlast low av teams.. it all makes sense Smile
but i do see your point here, not many elfs around...
nThatch



Joined: Jan 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 00:25 Reply with quote Back to top

suits fluffwise too i think. There arent really too many elves in this world,as there are litaerally hordes of greenskins and so forth.
Wotfudboy



Joined: Feb 17, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 00:33 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm quickly forming the opinion of "if you can't beat them, join them!"... but I'm trying to resist the temptation to make a <yawn> Orc, Khemri, Dwarf team... My woodies retired after winning their first game... my humans are my luckiest in opponents so far, with 27 games played, against 15 different races which is a good variation... but my Chaos Dwarves have played 27 games now... 10 of them against Chaos teams! I've started a norse team now... but I quickly remembered why I don't coach them normally... I might look to make a Dark Elf team.

I just wish people didn't just make all bashy teams and mixed it up a little...

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HolyG



Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 00:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Here... Here... but what seriously can be done ? As I see it at the moment we have built one big organised 'SMACK' does somebody actually have the solution or will Christer offer some alternative ?
maznaz



Joined: Jan 26, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 00:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I already proposed a solution of racial ladders which would encourage racial diversity as ranking and standing would be compared against other races rather than overall. This would promote racial diversity and give coaches an incentive to play the lesser represented races I think.

Other than waiting for something like that, just play what you find fun, don't worry too much about playing games with a beaten up team, as you can get lucky as well as unlucky. I've seen plenty of bashy teams get mauled in the box, and nothing lasts forever.
johan



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 01:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Eddy wrote:
"undermanned, low-AV team meets full-squad-and-more bashy team".


Matches should be balanced for chance of winning, not chance of getting bashed up. And with 6-1-2, you seem to be doing alright with the elves.

It's not really surprising that teams with expensive and well-skilled players will tend to have fewer of them in any match-up if the opponent has mostly skeletons. 9 elves vs 12 Khemri may not be nice, but it's not broken either.

Having fewer players do a better job with the ball is what elves are about.

_________________
”It's very sad
To see the ancient and distinguished game that used to be
A model of decorum and tranquillity
Become like any other sport, a battleground...”

—Benny Andersson & Björn Ulvaeus, Chess
Eddy



Joined: Aug 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 01:21 Reply with quote Back to top

johan wrote:
Eddy wrote:
"undermanned, low-AV team meets full-squad-and-more bashy team".


Matches should be balanced for chance of winning, not chance of getting bashed up. And with 6-1-2, you seem to be doing alright with the elves.

It's not really surprising that teams with expensive and well-skilled players will tend to have fewer of them in any match-up if the opponent has mostly skeletons. 9 elves vs 12 Khemri may not be nice, but it's not broken either.

Having fewer players do a better job with the ball is what elves are about.


I've played like 1500 games of BB, so i know the theory. You're saying 9 AV7 against 12 Khems is not broken? Right. They made me retire the team after it got savagely mauled. That's 4 players that can be hit by MB on the first turn, most with 3D, and a foul to boot. Then, at least one blitz a turn.
Yeah, i'm doing alright win-wise. That's because i play to win, not to save my players. That means trying dangerous stuff and getting hit more than i could do if i just ran away. And this results in the team getting retired. I just don't understand why i shouldn't face teams that ALSO miss players, or that don't feature 6 injury-related skills for a game where i'm already badly hurt.

But anyway, your two [B] teams are Khemri and Ogres... So, yeah, i understand you're not too receptive.

_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou
Lill-Leif



Joined: Nov 17, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 01:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
suits fluffwise too i think. There arent really too many elves in this world,as there are litaerally hordes of greenskins and so forth.


Uhm yeah, that's why I play orcs... and khemris! There are alot of skellies around as well.. With fishy names!!
Mr_Foulscumm



Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 01:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Eddy wrote:
That's 4 players that can be hit by MB on the first turn, most with 3D, and a foul to boot. Then, at least one blitz a turn.


MB without tackle vs elves? Oh so scary.

Elves do NOT need to be protected from "bashy" teams. Nor does any other av7 team.

What is this, the 10th thread about this so far?

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morraywolfymax



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 01:41 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd say I have to agree, hardly any of these teams have got tackle so most of your guys have a defense and offence that is better than str5

Try elfs instead of woodies,that10k cheaper links makes all the difference!

Oh and get used to all your opponents using Orc khem chaos and dwarfs, all noons do cause they don't want to lose pixels themselves, they'll freely lose but no way do they want to try the 'real' bloodbowl!

P.a.I always give my respect to elf players in black box as it certainly takes nuts!

So well done sir, and don't give up!

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Eddy



Joined: Aug 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 01:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Mr_Foulscumm wrote:

MB without tackle vs elves? Oh so scary.

Oh yeah, i forgot that Elves with 4 teams played had developed Dodge on everyone already. My mistake.
PS: your TR180 Elf team with 15 matches played only has 3 players with Dodge. I guess your argument's not so solid, don't you think?

Quote:
Elves do NOT need to be protected from "bashy" teams. Nor does any other av7 team.

And did i ask for that? No, i asked for match-ups where, when you can field only 8 or 9 players, you don't get to face 13 bashers loaded with damage-enhancing skills.

Quote:
What is this, the 10th thread about this so far?

I don't know, i searched a bit and didn't find anything that mentioned the scheduler taking the number of players into account. But feel free to link me to some of them, if they exist.

Oh, and where can we get data on the number of teams playing in the box? If you're right, then surely i must be dreaming when all i see in the scheduler are Dwarves, Khemri, Orcs and Chaos.

EDIT: and again, i do not mind losing players, it's fair, especially with low AV. That's why i put them on the line if it helps me win. But then, i don't want to always start the game with only 8 or 9, only to be reduced to 2 guys by half-time.

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'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou
arv9673



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 01:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Eddy wrote:


EDIT: and again, i do not mind losing players, it's fair, especially with low AV. That's why i put them on the line if it helps me win. But then, i don't want to always start the game with only 8 or 9, only to be reduced to 2 guys by half-time.


Then play another team. Seems pretty simple to me...
Or am I missing soemthing? I had two SI and an RIP on my Delfs' first game. They tend to be down players every game. Yeah they've played khemri 3-4 times in only 14 games, but I managed to win one of those games and tie another. One game, I actually had two elves left on turn 2/8 to complete a pass!!! Very Happy

Maybe you just need to lower your standards (or change them) about what constitutes a "Good" game. At least you havent seen Paulhicks in the [B]ox...
Optihut



Joined: Dec 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 01:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Eddy wrote:
I don't know, i searched a bit and didn't find anything that mentioned the scheduler taking the number of players into account. But feel free to link me to some of them, if they exist.


Here is a link to the holyG blackbox: http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=14900

There was also the CircularLogic blackbox and the Optihut blackbox and this thread features the Eddy blackbox.
Eddy



Joined: Aug 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 01:57 Reply with quote Back to top

arv9673 wrote:
Then play another team. Seems pretty simple to me...
Or am I missing soemthing? I had two SI and an RIP on my Delfs' first game. They tend to be down players every game. Yeah they've played khemri 3-4 times in only 14 games, but I managed to win one of those games and tie another. One game, I actually had two elves left on turn 2/8 to complete a pass!!! Very Happy

Maybe you just need to lower your standards (or change them) about what constitutes a "Good" game. At least you havent seen Paulhicks in the [B]ox...


Hmmm, it's not about me. It's about suggesting that, maybe, it's not such a good thing that the scheduler doesn't figure in the number of players you have when setting up a game.

How come it's getting such a hostile response? Is it so much worse a suggestion than "maybe handicaps should be re-evaluated because 5 TS is not cutting it", or "the cap should not be 15 TS but less/more", or anything?

Again, let's look at the number of teams in the box, maybe i'm just wrong and it suits everyone to have to play the same 4 or 5 races all the time.

Optihut wrote:
Here is a link to the holyG blackbox: http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=14900

There was also the CircularLogic blackbox and the Optihut blackbox and this thread features the Eddy blackbox.


Again, i'm not looking to force anything. I'm merely suggesting that the way so-called "recovery games" don't exist in the box makes it quite frustrating for coaches who don't enjoy bashing only. I'm more of a bashy-player, but it gets old. I'm frustrated the box doesn't allow for diversity, unless i can commit to playing most of my games undermanned, against opponents who don't face this problem.

But if the TS formula and the way the scheduler works are perfect, then i apologize.

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'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou
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