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Calcium



Joined: Apr 08, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 18:45 Reply with quote Back to top

morraywolfymax wrote:

So you're kind of reinforcing Circs well made point to be honest...


Depends of how much of the quote you conviniently leave out morray....like most of it. Rolling Eyes

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morraywolfymax



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 19:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Sorry don't like to include entire quotes as it's a waste of time for people to re-read...

I don't think Circ mentioned assigning teams to certain races? I think he was saying that it is not an enjoyable experience for most coaches playing AV7 (I.e. Elfs) as they may well win, yes, but they get clobbered time and again by the coaches that aren't really bothered about losing because there is no value except w/d/l values on the team (Something that is wipped out when the team does eventually subcome to a DP heavy Khem team).

I think what he is trying to say is that you should recieve a general value that means the only elf teams you play should be failry assigned to play you on how much extra damage you cause/caused.

That's of course really hard for all Elf teams to reach as they get clobbered on the way there anyway...

But it's kind of a mute point with you Calcium as you yourself are playing Khem, Chaos and Humans...Humans that you've retired what twice? Doesn't that ring true a bit that maybe certain teams should recieve an advantage to get an equal match up?

Now I know you're going to say either
1. No, live with it (Etc.)
In which case that's your opinion, to which you wont change unless you eventually strap on a pair and play Elfs (The hardest teams to be succesful with in Blacbox I recon) (Just personal opinion) Very Happy
2. You play Amazons the most broke team in BB.
...Good point, but not really true at all...

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Kryten



Joined: Sep 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 19:53
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Eddy wrote:
@Kryten
congratulations!
Did you find it enjoyable to not finish some of the games for lack of players (i don't mean conceding, i mean ending turn)? How many times have you started a game undermanned against a bashy team and eventually won?


I was curious, so I went and looked. I found 12 games where I started with both fewer than 11 players and fewer than my opponent. Of those, I was 2/6/4.

Often the second half starts with six or eight elves ready to go, and I'm fine with that. It's very unusual for me to get bashed to the point of just clicking End Turn, even three elves on the field is a scoring chance. And yes, I still enjoy the games even when a lot of elves are missing from the pitch.
Calcium



Joined: Apr 08, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 20:01 Reply with quote Back to top

morraywolfymax wrote:

But it's kind of a mute point with you Calcium as you yourself are playing Khem, Chaos and Humans...Humans that you've retired what twice? Doesn't that ring true a bit that maybe certain teams should recieve an advantage to get an equal match up?


I have never suggested that coaches should not play certain teams in the box. All I am doing is playing my favourite teams. I also have teams I dislike (Orcs/Dwarf) so the way I play them will differ from what I regard as neutral teams.

But, whatever way you spin it, you want to find a way to 'adjust' the way matches are assigned to avoid being bashed. I'm sure the box will be fairer come the real launch, so mabye you and circ are worrying about nothing. Best to wait until then methinks. I'm sure Christer is fully aware of all these 'issues'

The irony is I would play elves the same way I play bash teams (but be able to score easier!), and I was mulling around with the idea of playing an elf team in the box...My Box Chaos are boring me half to death.....

As for giving some teams an advantage over the 'bash' teams...isn't a team FULL of AG4 not enough of an advantage?

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CircularLogic



Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 20:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Calcium wrote:

I have never suggested that coaches should not play certain teams in the box. All I am doing is playing my favourite teams. I also have teams I dislike (Orcs/Dwarf) so the way I play them will differ from what I regard as neutral teams.

But, whatever way you spin it, you want to find a way to 'adjust' the way matches are assigned to avoid being bashed. I'm sure the box will be fairer come the real launch, so mabye you and circ are worrying about nothing. Best to wait until then methinks. I'm sure Christer is fully aware of all these 'issues'

The irony is I would play elves the same way I play bash teams (but be able to score easier!), and I was mulling around with the idea of playing an elf team in the box...My Box Chaos are boring me half to death.....

As for giving some teams an advantage over the 'bash' teams...isn't a team FULL of AG4 not enough of an advantage?


And this is not true. I have no problem being bashed. My problem is, that you get nothing for being squishy. If you can choose between 50% chance to win while maiming the opponent or 50% chance to win while getting maimed, would you choose the second option? Especially if the means that if you really get hurt, you have drastically less than 50% the next game (but you still get bashed).

So why take the second option and why not coach orcs and dorfs?
johan



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 22:53 Reply with quote Back to top

CircularLogic wrote:
Actually... wins don`t matter in the box. They give you nothing but a harder match next time. There isn`t even an imaginary number you could try to maximize for bragging rights. So forgive me... how are wins the only thing that matters in the box?


In a way you're right - at the moment, the BlackBox doesn't tell you what matters in any way. Once the system gets going I imagine that a high BlackBox rating is something that people will aim for (like CR or the Championship, but hopefully a lot better).

What matters in Faction? Faction placings. In Ranked? CR, Championship (if anyone cared) and tournies (especially majors). In League? Winning the league (or placing well in it). Supposedly (I could be totally wrong here), the BlackBox rating will be the relevant "official" goal for BlackBox.

CircularLogic wrote:
I agree that agility vs bashers is a long discussion. In a matchup of elves vs dwarves, the dwarves (most of the times) will be the one that do the hurting and the elves will be the one getting hurt. Now I would think that is an advantage for the guy playing dwarves. Now when it comes to winning in the same matchup, the dwarf coach insists, that he should have the same chance to win. So why does the bashier team get the advantage of hurting while not having the disadvantage of being more likely to lose the match?


Because Blood Bowl is about winning the match, not hurting the opponent. For anyone who plays the game seriously, hurting the opponent is a means to an end (winning the match) rather than a goal in itself. You might as well ask why the elf teams gets the advantage of having a better passing game without the disadvantage of being more likely to lose the match. Different teams have different tools for winning, that's all.

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johan



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 22:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Eddy wrote:
Thank you johan and Calcium (in your latest post) for trying to discuss the matters instead of just dissing what i said and accusing me of being a pixelhugger/cherrypicker/whiner/whatever.


And thank you for that underhanded comment... Rolling Eyes

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”It's very sad
To see the ancient and distinguished game that used to be
A model of decorum and tranquillity
Become like any other sport, a battleground...”

—Benny Andersson & Björn Ulvaeus, Chess
SillySod



Joined: Oct 10, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 23:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Ash wrote:
what can be done? well.... quota!

Three group of team : usualy soft, usualy neutral, usualy bashy.

You can t have a delta bitween 2 groups of more than 1... if you do by some retirement, you can t join the box until you got your number right again.
I know it s lame. But it s the only solution IF it s a real issue.


Having a categorybased quota is always going to produce imbalances... do it by teams (and maybe by the popularity of those teams).

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Eddy



Joined: Aug 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2008 - 00:13 Reply with quote Back to top

johan wrote:
Eddy wrote:
Thank you johan and Calcium (in your latest post) for trying to discuss the matters instead of just dissing what i said and accusing me of being a pixelhugger/cherrypicker/whiner/whatever.


And thank you for that underhanded comment... Rolling Eyes


I'm sorry you misinterpreted it. What i meant is that you, johan, discussed from the beginning. Calcium started by trolling before realizing maybe we had a point worth discussing (even if he still disagrees).

So no underhanded comment here, and again, my apologies if you thought so.

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johan



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2008 - 01:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Okay, don't worry.

I read your post like it said "I'm so happy that you finally stopped beating your wife - good job!"

_________________
”It's very sad
To see the ancient and distinguished game that used to be
A model of decorum and tranquillity
Become like any other sport, a battleground...”

—Benny Andersson & Björn Ulvaeus, Chess
Ullakkomorko



Joined: Aug 10, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2008 - 09:46 Reply with quote Back to top

CircularLogic wrote:
If you can choose between 50% chance to win while maiming the opponent or 50% chance to win while getting maimed, would you choose the second option? Especially if the means that if you really get hurt, you have drastically less than 50% the next game (but you still get bashed).


I'm probably missing something, but I don't see how you'd have less than 50% chance in the next game after getting a good kicking. Your TS is lower so you get a lower TS opponent. Is the problem with the way TS is calculated?
CircularLogic



Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2008 - 09:54 Reply with quote Back to top

If you have fewer than 11 people, the TS becomes skewed. Which is rather in relation to the team you are facing. 9 really skilled elves vs 14 rookie elves is an even match - probably with advantage for the 9. As soon as there are multiple DPs present on the full squad, the win chances tend to plummet.
odi



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2008 - 10:25 Reply with quote Back to top

I dont mind those games, even though it seems I'm trying to recover my norse every second game or so, but I suppose the biggest problem that causes this is because no one is killing my blitzers and that is giving a too big of a boost in TR/TS. So could someone please kill off a few of my Norse blitzers?

My skaven dont seem to have this problem, they seem to get just as many positionals killed as line rats, which makes for a pretty even team balance...

I suppose the thing with AV7 teams, is not to dream about having a well over TR200+ team in Bdiv, since after the money stops pouring in, you're in trouble. But yeah, couple of the last games, starting with 9 or 10 players have been a bit of a concern, especially the coin toss. Lose that and you know you're well outnumbered for the rest of the game.

Edit: But if you have less than 11 players, that doesnt mean that the scheduler should give you a recov game... Play the team, or retire it, that's what the box is for.
nin



Joined: May 27, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2008 - 20:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Has someone sugested a revision of the TS formula for teams under 11?
In [R]anked, being able to pick your opponent may helps avoiding the drawbaks of having few players, so may be the formula is not accurate there.
Eddy



Joined: Aug 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 15, 2008 - 21:15 Reply with quote Back to top

That's what i suggest, indeed =P

Seriously, i don't know enough about the formula used to suggest any figures. I'm sure the TS-experts out there could, though.

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