| Poll |
| What do you think a fumbbl-HC should be worth (in TS) |
| I haven't read the first post yet and don't know exactly how many / which HC exist, so I can't really say. |
|
16% |
[ 12 ] |
| 1 TS |
|
1% |
[ 1 ] |
| 2 TS |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| 3 TS |
|
17% |
[ 13 ] |
| 4 TS |
|
6% |
[ 5 ] |
| 5 TS |
|
42% |
[ 32 ] |
| 6 TS |
|
2% |
[ 2 ] |
| 7 TS |
|
2% |
[ 2 ] |
| 8 TS |
|
2% |
[ 2 ] |
| 9 TS |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| 10 TS |
|
8% |
[ 6 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 75 |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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 Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:12 |
 
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Hi everyone,
since Handicaps have become a part in the TS-formula in Black-Box and people are arguing about how much they're worth (in terms of TS), I'd like to know what you think the avg. price (in terms of TS) should be for a randomly drawn HC.
Please keep in mind, that the value should reflect an avg. value over all situations that you encounter in regular Black-Box-games (full roster vs. less than 11 players, avg. TR/TS - range, any race, etc.)
Below I've put up a list of all HC that are supported on fumbbl and made 3 categories of what I think they'd be worth approximately.
Feel free to discuss and criticize. 
Worth >5TS:
EXTRA TRAINING 1 RR (For most teams >5TS)
I AM THE GREATEST! Depending on 2nd highest SPP-Player (the one that's likely not to play)
MORLEY’S REVENGE On Avg. 1 Player is missing the match each half (could be 0..3)
DOOM & GLOOM Oppo's team looses 50% RR for 1st half, prob. worth about 1 RR
IT WASN'T ME! Worth TS-value of avg. (randomly selected) Player of Oppo's team
Worth ~5TS:
ILLEGAL DRUGS +AG or +ST for Player of Choice
VIRUS Depending on # of Nigglers on Oppo's team
BUZZING JumpUp + Frenzy for player of choice
IRON MAN Invulnerability for player of choice
SMELLING SALTS Depending on # of KO's / Stunty-Players
Worth <5TS:
BAD PRESS Depending on Kick-Off-Results / Increase of Likelyhood of Beating FF with HC
PALMED COIN 50% Chance of getting a Kick-Off-Result you wouldn't have gotten otherwise
DUH, WHERE AM I? Bonehead-Rule for Player of Choice: TS-Value of that Player * 5/6
BRIBE THE REF Ignore 1st Sent-Off / Depending on Foul-Heaviness of match / team
KNUCKLEDUSTERS Like Mighty-Blow for Chosen Player |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:15 |
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Personally, I don't think you can even begin to place a fixed amount on any given cap (even as a mean). It all depends on the situation you're in. Virus can either be totally useless or break the game, Knucks on a certian player can be awesome, Moreleys that never works is rubbish, but Salts can keep you in a game.
Etc, etc.  |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:21 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | Personally, I don't think you can even begin to place a fixed amount on any given cap (even as a mean). It all depends on the situation you're in. Virus can either be totally useless or break the game, Knucks on a certian player at low TR can be awesome, Moreleys that never works is rubbish, but Salts can keep you in a game.
Etc, etc. |
I disagree on Morley - if you're short on players it can be very harsh: On avg. 2 players are affected by Morley's Revenge each half (1D3) and of those 50% don't make it to the game - so that's 1 player / half on avg. that doesn't make it...
...actually having all players available in one half and then missing 2 the next half can make this even worse... 
...I agree it's hard to put a number in terms of TS-worth to a HC, but I think it's better pricing HCs than not doing so, hence the need to do a reasonable pricing of the avg. worth |
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xcver
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:22 |
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Extra Training will drop considerably in worth for already developed teams that have enough rerolls |
_________________
"Power without perception is virtually useless and therefore of no true value!" - Ryouken - Master of the Hokuto no Ken Martial Arts |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:24 |
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| xcver wrote: | | Extra Training will drop considerably in worth for already developed teams that have enough rerolls |
I agree, but I think good coaching should also stay well below the number of RR you're likely to really need. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:27 |
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| treborius wrote: | | I disagree on Morley - if you're short on players it can be very harsh... |
| Purplegoo wrote: | | Moreleys <b>that never works</b> is rubbish |
Of course it <i>can</i> be harsh, but if it never works, it isn't!
I kinda think this is like the TS rework thread. Sure, it would be nice to have a definitive answer, but in the end, we're never going to all agree and a rough approximation is good enough for our uses. 5 TS on handicaps is a rough guess, just like TS itself is, it's good enough for me.  |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:30 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | (...), but in the end, we're never going to all agree and a rough approximation is good enough for our uses. 5 TS on handicaps is a rough guess, just like TS itself is, it's good enough for me. |
\o/ |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:33 |
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Wait - 5 TS is the current site blanket approximation in terms of [B] scheduling and CR calculation, isn't it? I assumed this was where you began working from. I meant it isn't all that broke at the moment... so prolly not worth the time fixing it?
Are you agreeing but tweaking with the status quo, or agreeing by chance?  |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:37 |
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the client rolls the handicaps. The site selects matchups beforehand so anyway, you don't know which handicaps will be drawn at this stage. So the only real discussion is, is a handicap 5TS worth. |
_________________
Join NL Raises from the Ashes |
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westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
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| Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:41 |
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Reposting my take, it's fairly close to yours.
>5 TS:
GREATEST 9TS (oppo loses 2nd best player, say 10TS discounted to 9TS in case best player doesn't play)
MORLEY'S REVENGE 8TS (avg 1 random player out on any drive, but the uncertainty frustrates opponent)
ILLEGAL DRUGS 8TS (+1ST applied in best possible place)
DOOM & GLOOM 6TS (avg 2 rerolls lost = 10TS, x half the game = 5TS, +20% for the first half and chances of extra CAS = 6TS)
IT WASN'T ME! 8TS (random player out)
~5 TS:
EXTRA TRAINING 5TS (avg value of reroll)
SMELLING SALTS 5TS (gut feeling, I hate when players idle in the KO box)
<5 TS:
PALMED COIN 3TS (receving first = 6TS, x50% you would have won the toss anyway)
BAD PRESS 3TS (say avg 13FF = 6FF lost = 3TS)
DUH, WHERE AM I? 4TS (oppo's best player gets Bonehead)
BRIBE THE REF 2TS (almost useless, prevents IGMEOY on 1st foul only)
KNUCKLEDUSTERS 3TS (Mighty Blow in right place)
VIRUS 4TS (This is obviously highly variable. The threat of Virus encourages sacking of nigglers. Guessing every 3rd B team has a niggler who will usually be a good player.)
IRON MAN 4TS (probably worth 2 basic skills)
BUZZNIG 3TS (can be double edged)
The average comes out to 5TS so the current valuation is not too far off. I voted 4TS because I dislike random factors. |
_________________
\x/es |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:42 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | Wait - 5 TS is the current site blanket approximation in terms of [B] scheduling and CR calculation, isn't it? |
yes it is.
| Purplegoo wrote: | | I assumed this was where you began working from. I meant it isn't all that broke at the moment... |
true / i agree.
| Purplegoo wrote: | | Are you agreeing but tweaking with the status quo, or agreeing by chance? |
I'm just curious what others think about the TS-value of HCs - I have the feeling that 5 TS is about right at a TS-level of about 100..150ish and would tend towards >5 TS for teams above 200 / 250 TS.
Reason for the poll is, that I was surprised about people arguing, that 5TS was too much for a HC... |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:44 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: | | the client rolls the handicaps. The site selects matchups beforehand so anyway, you don't know which handicaps will be drawn at this stage. So the only real discussion is, is a handicap 5TS worth. |
that's what I was trying to have discussed |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:50 |
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| westerner wrote: | Reposting my take, it's fairly close to yours.
>5 TS:
GREATEST 9TS (oppo loses 2nd best player, say 10TS discounted to 9TS in case best player doesn't play)
MORLEY'S REVENGE 8TS (avg 1 random player out on any drive, but the uncertainty frustrates opponent)
ILLEGAL DRUGS 8TS (+1ST applied in best possible place)
DOOM & GLOOM 6TS (avg 2 rerolls lost = 10TS, x half the game = 5TS, +20% for the first half and chances of extra CAS = 6TS)
IT WASN'T ME! 8TS (random player out)
~5 TS:
EXTRA TRAINING 5TS (avg value of reroll)
SMELLING SALTS 5TS (gut feeling, I hate when players idle in the KO box)
<5 TS:
PALMED COIN 3TS (receving first = 6TS, x50% you would have won the toss anyway)
BAD PRESS 3TS (say avg 13FF = 6FF lost = 3TS)
DUH, WHERE AM I? 4TS (oppo's best player gets Bonehead)
BRIBE THE REF 2TS (almost useless, prevents IGMEOY on 1st foul only)
KNUCKLEDUSTERS 3TS (Mighty Blow in right place)
VIRUS 4TS (This is obviously highly variable. The threat of Virus encourages sacking of nigglers. Guessing every 3rd B team has a niggler who will usually be a good player.)
IRON MAN 4TS (probably worth 2 basic skills)
BUZZNIG 3TS (can be double edged)
The average comes out to 5TS so the current valuation is not too far off. I voted 4TS because I dislike random factors. |
nice approach and reasoning, avg. would actually be 5.1TS |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:52 |
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It makes no sense to weight handicaps in TS terms. They vary too much in power and ingame effects, and the "average hc value" would always be unaccurate.
Average is not a synonym of fair or just.
Personally I'd love to match teams by TS, putting a max limit of +/- 5% ts in blackbox pairings, and I would eliminate handicaps at all. |
_________________
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Dec 30, 2008 - 15:57 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | It makes no sense to weight handicaps in TS terms. They vary too much in power and ingame effects, and the "average hc value" would always be unaccurate.
Average is not a synonym of fair.
Personally I'd love to match teams by TS, putting a max limit of +/- 5% ts in blackbox pairings, and I would eliminate handicaps at all. |
I think most players would like that, but it's just not realistic to find a reasonable amount of matchups every 30mins in Black-Box when you have to not only match TS, but also TR (for avoiding HCs). |
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