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Frankenstein



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 13:13 Reply with quote Back to top

This post has become moot.

No need for further flaming, thanks.


Last edited by Frankenstein on Jan 19, 2009 - 20:06; edited 5 times in total
bicarbonateofsteve



Joined: May 24, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 13:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Thankyou. i'm not necessarily a bashy coach but i am bored of people whining about Blackbox. Everyone knows wood elves are the hardest race to beat : D at least the bashy teams don't have to 'censor' their squads any more to get games... Long live Blackbox
shadow46x2



Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 13:51 Reply with quote Back to top

nice way to state plenty of "facts" despite giving any sort of evidence...

Frankenstein wrote:
Fact 1:

Orcs have been the most popular BB-race for a long time.

(Unfortunately, the overview, showing how many teams of each race are active and how many games a race has played, is no longer accessible. But orcs were no 1 by far.)

Fact 2:

Chaos, Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs are also quite popular races.

Just check out leagues without any racial restrictions for confirmation.


neither of these "facts" can be proven to be accurate, simply because you're basing your opinion without finding out the reasons why people play said races....

what could be accurate, though, is that all of those races have a higher level of longevity, and are more suited to a closed environment without the option for an open schedule...

Frankenstein wrote:
Fact 3:

These 4 races are able to reach and maintain a higher TR/TS easier than races with lower armour.


this, could be true....but when combined with the fact that blackbox is a competitive division(in comparison to ranked, which isn't), why should the longevity of a team matter, when the victory is what matters?

Frankenstein wrote:
Fact 4:

As it is difficult to play the aforementioned 4 races (and khemri) in [R], it appears only naturally that people give them a try in a division (i.e. blackbox), where games for these teams are assured. Additionally, there is no need to sport less Claw/RSC/DP/MB than usual in order to get these games (a concession you often encounter in [R]).


so basically, because people build team-killers in ranked that don't get matches, and decide "oh well people are forced to play me in blackbox", it's perfectly ok?....

that's pretty antisocial behavior don't you think?(and apparently, from the way people like to describe me, i'm apparently an expert on antisocial behavior)

Frankenstein wrote:
Fact 5:

There might be 4 elf races, but their themes are far more redundant compared to those of orcs, dwarfs, chaos dwarfs, chaos and khemri.


um....
hmmm....

if you're talking about fluff......the 4 seperate elf races are pretty diverse, just as equal to the other 5 races...

if you're talking about play style... high elves and dark elves are the only 2 races that have similar playstyles, but even they have their own unique twist....

but what about orcs? cage & bash...
dorfs? cage & bash...
cdorfs? cage & bash
khemri? cage & bash...

chaos is the only 1 out of the 5 that has a different "theme" and that's only because they come with mutations that allow them more flexibility....

if anything, out of the 9 races mentioned, delfs are probably the most versatile, with chaos being a close second....

Frankenstein wrote:
Conclusion:

Expect a high percentage of orcs, chaos, chaos dwarfs, dwarfs and khemri in blackbox, especially at higher TR. There is nothing wrong with that, it is to be expected and there is absolutely no need for additional patronizing rules for the division.


i don't think anyone is deluded into believing there is going to be 100% equal representation across the board...

what *is* a valid concern though, is the over-representation of a certain faction of races...

nobody is asking to get rid of any race, and turn the blackbox into elfbox, because that'd be equally as boring as playing only orcs or dorfs....it's simple balance that people look for....or as close to balance as can be achieved...

Frankenstein wrote:
If someone seriously expects a soft blackbox environment at higher TR, then blackbox maybe isn't for them.


yeah, i don't think anyone is deluding themselves here either....i haven't met one person who expects a "soft blackbox" environment at *any* TR, much less a high TR range...

but is it so much to ask for some sort of balance across opposition, instead of the same 3 races, over and over and over?....

for example, i don't care about playing any race...i'll play everyone that's fine...what i despise is seeing orcs/dorfs/khemri repeatedly....it gets boring....throw in a chaos team, some necros, undead, hell, even amazons...

it's called variety....

would you seriously want to play nothing but dorfs every single game?..i find it very hard to believe that you could genuinely think that would be fun...

Frankenstein wrote:
There is absolutely no need for any more thisregarding moaning, it's totally silly and superfluous! Twisted Evil


um...why?...

last i checked, the system was still in alpha phase...

that means that concerns about the system *SHOULD* be brought forth, and discussed, and analyzed by the creator of the system....

if the one writing the system decides there's no issue, then there's no issue....but that's what the playtesters are here for....to do just that...to discuss issues and concerns...

trying to squelch valid issues in a system that is being developed...might as well just ask for the entire system to be shut down....way to go...

--j

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Evil-Eve



Joined: Aug 21, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 13:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Shadow: well said! I agree
Reisender



Joined: Sep 29, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 14:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Evil-Eve wrote:
Shadow: well said! I agree
pac



Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 14:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Frankenstein wrote:
(Unfortunately, the overview, showing how many teams of each race are active and how many games a race has played, is no longer accessible.

Sure it is. Noob. Razz
Ullakkomorko



Joined: Aug 10, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 14:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Frankenstein wrote:
There is absolutely no need for any more thisregarding moaning, it's totally silly and superfluous! Twisted Evil


If what you're stating is true, then another conclusion is that something should definitely be done about it, since naturally things tend to be boring (in terms of races played) in Blackbox.

The overall popularity of Orcs has probably something to do with the fact that Orcs are considered (to my knowledge) an easy race to start with, so many coaches have at least tried them.
Pirog



Joined: Jul 13, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 20:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Regarding orcs I also think part of the popularity is due to them having a cool "image". I think orcs have been popular in all Warhammer related games, even when they haven't been considered the "best" choice.

What sets dwarves apart from other teams (in my opinion) is that they lack variety. Sure, there are several races that rely on similar tactics. They bash and cage. But where orcs have varied players, some big guys, a troll, a chance for some TTM fun, where chaos dwarves have some big guys and some fragile guys to bash on and where khemri has a lot of really fragile players to balance their 4 mummies...dwarves all pretty much look the same. Sure, the troll slayers have dauntless and frenzy...but that isn't such a huge difference. And their good skill selections makes dwarf builds kind of end up looking the same way. They are going to have a bunch of guard and mb along with their high AV.

The other teams don't always have to end up with the slow cage approach. I have seen plenty of orc teams with a passing game, chaos dwarves with bull ball carriers that sprints etc. But I have only once during all my time playing Blood Bowl seen a dwarf team that doesn't slow cage.
CircularLogic



Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 20:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Frankenstein, you have opened my eyes.. I shall go forth and retire my humans and woodelves and create dorfs and chaos instead. I can keep my orcs. Thx for the advice.
westerner



Joined: Jul 02, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 00:24 Reply with quote Back to top

What Shadow said.

I certainly wouldn't demean or prevent another coach's choice to play bashy. But I don't think it's whining to wish for a bit more variety and discuss ways this might be achieved, either through tweaking the scheduler or through metagroups (as Pac suggested in the other thread). Please note that this is *not* the same as wanting to dodge a beating.

I think Pirog's point about Dorfs, if I may extrapolate it to bash as a whole, illustrates the argument. It's not that there's anything wrong with choosing to play dorfs, it's just that they're typically a bit repetitious to play against. Similarly, while granted the other bashy races have a bit more variety to them, taken together they are not as fun to play against as a more diverse set of opponents.

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Synn



Joined: Dec 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 00:28 Reply with quote Back to top

I heard the best quote last night from Ameranth that accurately sums up my feelings about [B]:

<Ameranth> B has brought griefing to Fumbbl

__Synn
Rijssiej



Joined: Jan 04, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 00:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Yawn 1:

Aren't we over this yet?
paulhicks



Joined: Jul 19, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 00:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Synn wrote:
I heard the best quote last night from Ameranth that accurately sums up my feelings about [B]:

<Ameranth> B has brought griefing to Fumbbl

__Synn


this might sound stupid but what exactly is griefing and how does it apply to [B]?

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 00:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I am very glad that there is both a blackbox and ranked division. I don't know if I'll be able to state my feelings well, but I will give it a try.

I play blackbox to win and face the best coaches. I don not play black box with any illusion that I will be able to develop any team. It is not what the division is about. I have a dark elf squad in the box. It has been winning so I am happy with it. When I take too many casualties, it will be retired. No delusions. I also know that my dwarfs and amazons will get match. No promises outside the box that I will.

I do have a couple of teams I am building. Those go in ranked, and I am often selective about who I play. This is especially true when I need a recovery match.

To me, each division serves it's own purpose. I am happy in both worlds.
Gran



Joined: Jul 07, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 00:54 Reply with quote Back to top

paulhicks wrote:
Synn wrote:
I heard the best quote last night from Ameranth that accurately sums up my feelings about [B]:

<Ameranth> B has brought griefing to Fumbbl

__Synn


this might sound stupid but what exactly is griefing and how does it apply to [B]?


For you Paul, from Wiktionary (I wondered myself):

Quote:
Verb

to grief (third-person singular simple present griefs, present participle griefing, simple past and past participle griefed)

1. (online gaming) To harass and annoy other players of a game in a deliberate attempt to interfere with their enjoyment of it; especially, to do this as one’s primary activity in the game.


With that in mind I can only agree with Synn, the problem for me is not so much peoples choice of race as it is the antisocial behaviour we see.

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Last edited by Gran on Jan 18, 2009 - 00:56; edited 1 time in total
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