Snappy_Dresser
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
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 Posted:
Jan 21, 2009 - 07:57 |
 
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| fenric wrote: | | JanMattys wrote: |
I am not a fan of a rule where you have to submit different teams to blackbox if you don't want to. |
Why do we have this rule, anyway? Why can't we just activate one team? I don't want to retire my goblins, but I'd really like to get some games with some flings. |
Then go play ranked |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 21, 2009 - 08:28 |
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| Snappy_Dresser wrote: | | fenric wrote: | | JanMattys wrote: |
I am not a fan of a rule where you have to submit different teams to blackbox if you don't want to. |
Why do we have this rule, anyway? Why can't we just activate one team? I don't want to retire my goblins, but I'd really like to get some games with some flings. |
Then go play ranked |
Hmmm. If you want to play a nice balanced schedule you could pick whatever you liked in [R]anked  |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:14 |
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Forcing people to play races they dont want to play with will not work. Atleast, it would make playing much less enjoyable. I for one dont want to beforced into playing Dwarves or Khemri. I find coaching them boring. I much rather play with my skaven team (which have a huge advantage in B, because of the lack of tackle). I play to win, and it's nice to have a challange of keeping the team alive too. Atleast I wont have a problem about having 16 players on the roster to boost up my TR.
But I do ofcourse have a basher team too, that goes without saying... But the bot just doesnt want to give my gobbos a game  |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Jan 21, 2009 - 10:41 |
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You are not forced to play races you dislike! Well.. unless you dislike 15+ of the 21 races. So lets say we group the races in the following way:
1) The Big 5: Orc, Dorf, Chaos, Khemri, Ogre
2) Semi-Basher: Undead, Chaos Dwarves, Rotter, Amazons
3) Hit&Run: Humans, Necromantic, Skaven, Lizzies
4) Elves: HE, DE, WE, Elves
5) Wackies: Flings, Gobbos, Vamps, Norse
Now the rule would be, that only one third of your teams can be from one category. So you have orcs and before you make another orc/chaos/khemri/dorf/ogre team, you need 2 other teams from other categories. You, Odi, would just need one extra team out of HE, DE, WE, Elves, Undead, CD, Zons, Rotters, Orcs, Chaos, Khemri, Dwarves or Ogre. Don`t you think you can find 1 race in that list you`d like to play, too?
This would be complemented by making it mandatory to have at least 2 teams for the box, which would be beneficial for the matchmaking as there is a larger teampool to choose from and a final measure that if a coach has new teams those teams are matched until all [B] teams of a coach have reached 5 games. This for one makes it easier for people to start up new teams instead of having the sit on the sideline forever, because the experienced teams are matched all the time and it would also prevent people from circumventing the system by making starladden teams that are retired after 1game and develop only their 'real team'.
That would be my plan if I would wield the staff of power in [B]. Feel free to pick it apart. |
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Pirog
Joined: Jul 13, 2006
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Jan 21, 2009 - 11:25 |
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Personally I like the idea of quotas, which would make the race spread a lot better in the Box. But I doubt that Christer will want to implement it. He has been very adamant in his policy of not forcing things upon people and I suspect that he will not do it here either.
A problem at this point would of course be to change over to such a system. I for example have an ogre and a khemri team. That's 2 bashers. I would need to start quite a few teams to be able to keep them. While I would be willing to do this I am fairly sure that a lot of people wouldn't.
And personally I oppose ogres being placed amonst the "big 5". They are not as good bashers as people think, they are certainly not a "good" team when it comes to winning and there is a challenge keeping the team in shape when it comes to durability. It would be better as semi-bashers or perhaps even better as a wacky team. |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 21, 2009 - 11:39 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | You, Odi, would just need one extra team out of HE, DE, WE, Elves, Undead, CD, Zons, Rotters, Orcs, Chaos, Khemri, Dwarves or Ogre. Don`t you think you can find 1 race in that list you`d like to play, too? |
Yes, I'm sure I'd find something, if I had to. But the thing is, I dont really play that much (ofcourse sometimes I might play 3-4 games in a row), but If I'm gonna play 1 quick game after getting home from work, I would prefer to be able to play with one of my favorite teams. That catogory thing doesnt really effect me, since I do also have a norse and necro team (norse just to rip apart chaos teams and the necroes I've been thingking about retiring for a long time). But if I had a choice, 80% of the time I would want to play with my gobbos, and then skaven. But that's just me. I dont find the B dive too full of bashers, yes, there are a lot more bashers than elves, but that was supposed to be expected. Though I prolly would get a fair match up vs elves with my multi DP skaven in R anyway |
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Ullakkomorko
Joined: Aug 10, 2008
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| Posted:
Jan 21, 2009 - 11:44 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | ... it would also prevent people from circumventing the system by making starladden teams that are retired after 1game and develop only their 'real team'. |
These teams would be matched against other teams that have done the same thing!
The proposal would also prohibit, say, only having two elf teams. Nobody's complaining about coaches that have two elf teams (not that there are an abundance of them). How about trying only two or three categories: Big 5, semibash and all the rest.
Anyway, I hope we'll see the emergence of a new Blackbox mentality, where dead players and constantly low TS are things to be celebrated. The problem with this is that a big part of Bloodbowl is the team building aspect. For anecdotal evidence, I, for one, retired my Pro Elf team because all my positionals died or aged. I still got matches, but the team had lost all it's color. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 21, 2009 - 12:00 |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 21, 2009 - 12:14 |
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Some of us wanna bash with AV7, it's much more fun retiring a dwarf team with your AV7 team, than retiring an AV7 team with dwarves
And like I said, I'm a skaven player... So it's more like play 10 games, win most of them... rebuild for a few games and then play 10 games again...Usually the TR goes up'n'down between 150-200. But since skaven are so fast to skill up, players dying isnt really a problem. I'm more worried about a block lino getting killed than a blodge, SS, shadowing gutter. Dying... that's what rats do, but they do it in style |
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johan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 21, 2009 - 12:31 |
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I kinda like the idea that under-represented races could get easier match-ups. Not by a lot, mind, just a small tweaking of the formula. That would make it at least somewhat interesting for people to diversify in races. Playing the least popular race against the most popular could sure be worth 5 TS or so. |
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A model of decorum and tranquillity
Become like any other sport, a battleground...”
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 21, 2009 - 12:54 |
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@Pirog:
I don`t know how things will play out if [B] popularity decreases because of the poor racial spread. Faction forces a few things, too and those changes were implemented to counter the decline of the division.
I put ogres with the other bashers, because they have the most damage potential of all starting teams and a fleshed out ogre team has AV9, ST5 and MB on nearly all players. Yes - they are not good at winning, but they ARE good at bashing.
@Ullakkomorko
The reason for splitting it up into 5 categories is that you can choose not to play 2 categories at all. It makes the system more flexible and less people would run into the problem of having to play a team they don`t really like.
@koadah:
Two teams would be enough for a start, so that people that hate more than 12 races can just pick 2 categories and aren`t forced to do anything. And last time I checked you only need a mandate for actions not thoughts.
@johan:
If the least popular vs the most popular race only yields 5TS, then why bother? The 2-3 TS you`d get for playing an underused race wouldn`t be noticable against the huge TS modifications for BR and BBR and the random TS fluctuations of teams available to be matched. It might work, if you also modify the caps and up the TS infuence to 8. If you have the least used, you could only matched in the -23 to +7TS range, while if you use the most used team, you could only be matched in the -7 to +23 TS range. |
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fenric
Joined: Jan 02, 2008
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| Posted:
Jan 21, 2009 - 13:39 |
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| Snappy_Dresser wrote: | | fenric wrote: | | JanMattys wrote: |
I am not a fan of a rule where you have to submit different teams to blackbox if you don't want to. |
Why do we have this rule, anyway? Why can't we just activate one team? I don't want to retire my goblins, but I'd really like to get some games with some flings. |
Then go play ranked |
That still doesn't answer my question. Of course I could play ranked, but I much prefer the box. I was just wondering how and why the "activate all of your teams" rule came into being. |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 21, 2009 - 13:52 |
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| fenric wrote: |
That still doesn't answer my question. Of course I could play ranked, but I much prefer the box. I was just wondering how and why the "activate all of your teams" rule came into being. |
So there would be more teams for the bot to try and make matchups. Most people (would hope) have more than 1 team in B. If you had 10 coaches submitting 1 team per coach, you propably wont get 5 matches (within the +/- 15TS), but if they all submit 2-3 teams, the amount of possible matches sky rockets, leaving more matches within the TS brackets (correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think that is the reason).
That is the reason my gobbos get so few games |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 21, 2009 - 18:50 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | You are not forced to play races you dislike! Well.. unless you dislike 15+ of the 21 races. So lets say we group the races in the following way:
1) The Big 5: Orc, Dorf, Chaos, Khemri, Ogre
2) Semi-Basher: Undead, Chaos Dwarves, Rotter, Amazons
3) Hit&Run: Humans, Necromantic, Skaven, Lizzies
4) Elves: HE, DE, WE, Elves
5) Wackies: Flings, Gobbos, Vamps, Norse
Now the rule would be, that only one third of your teams can be from one category. So you have orcs and before you make another orc/chaos/khemri/dorf/ogre team, you need 2 other teams from other categories. You, Odi, would just need one extra team out of HE, DE, WE, Elves, Undead, CD, Zons, Rotters, Orcs, Chaos, Khemri, Dwarves or Ogre. Don`t you think you can find 1 race in that list you`d like to play, too?
This would be complemented by making it mandatory to have at least 2 teams for the box, which would be beneficial for the matchmaking as there is a larger teampool to choose from and a final measure that if a coach has new teams those teams are matched until all [B] teams of a coach have reached 5 games. This for one makes it easier for people to start up new teams instead of having the sit on the sideline forever, because the experienced teams are matched all the time and it would also prevent people from circumventing the system by making starladden teams that are retired after 1game and develop only their 'real team'.
That would be my plan if I would wield the staff of power in [B]. Feel free to pick it apart. |
That's exactly what I, personally, would consider unasked for patronizing. But then, I'm pro choice in RL as well.
Neither would I like to be forced into playing certain races, nor would I consider forced activation of all teams as reasonable.
What team(s) coaches want to play, and when they want to play which team(s), should remain exclusively under their control, in my opinion.
It was an incredibly annoying experience for me to activate pro elfs like 20 times consecutively, and have them assigned just once or twice. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 21, 2009 - 19:09 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | You are not forced to play races you dislike! Well.. unless you dislike 15+ of the 21 races. So lets say we group the races in the following way:
1) The Big 5: Orc, Dorf, Chaos, Khemri, Ogre
2) Semi-Basher: Undead, Chaos Dwarves, Rotter, Amazons
3) Hit&Run: Humans, Necromantic, Skaven, Lizzies
4) Elves: HE, DE, WE, Elves
5) Wackies: Flings, Gobbos, Vamps, Norse
Now the rule would be, that only one third of your teams can be from one category. So you have orcs and before you make another orc/chaos/khemri/dorf/ogre team, you need 2 other teams from other categories. You, Odi, would just need one extra team out of HE, DE, WE, Elves, Undead, CD, Zons, Rotters, Orcs, Chaos, Khemri, Dwarves or Ogre. Don`t you think you can find 1 race in that list you`d like to play, too?
This would be complemented by making it mandatory to have at least 2 teams for the box, which would be beneficial for the matchmaking as there is a larger teampool to choose from and a final measure that if a coach has new teams those teams are matched until all [B] teams of a coach have reached 5 games. This for one makes it easier for people to start up new teams instead of having the sit on the sideline forever, because the experienced teams are matched all the time and it would also prevent people from circumventing the system by making starladden teams that are retired after 1game and develop only their 'real team'.
That would be my plan if I would wield the staff of power in [B]. Feel free to pick it apart. |
That's exactly what I, personally, would consider unasked for patronizing. But then, I'm pro choice in RL as well.
Neither would I like to be forced into playing certain races, nor would I consider forced activation of all teams as reasonable.
What team(s) coaches want to play, and when they want to play which team(s), should remain exclusively under their control, in my opinion.
It was an incredibly annoying experience for me to activate pro elfs like 20 times consecutively, and have them assigned just once or twice. |
On the other hand, even without the "need for different races" problem, activating all teams boosts quite a lot the chance for decent matchups. It's not a matter of limiting personal freedom of choice, but the whole point of a balanced random matchups division needs a large pool of teams.
I guess that's one of the major needs of the division, actually. DivB wouldn't be so popular if there were less teams, because it would provide even weirder matchups, or no matchups at all at times. |
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