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Poll
What is the single biggest factor that would encourage you to play more [B] Games?
1) A competitive goal beyond the single match
34%
 34%  [ 79 ]
2) More racial diversity
24%
 24%  [ 57 ]
3) Greater ease in getting a [B] game
5%
 5%  [ 12 ]
4) Reducing TS exploits
9%
 9%  [ 21 ]
5) Integration of the blackbox concept with other divisions
7%
 7%  [ 18 ]
6) None - I'm happy playing in other divisions.
19%
 19%  [ 45 ]
Total Votes : 232


Snappy_Dresser



Joined: Feb 11, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2009 - 16:57 Reply with quote Back to top

CircularLogic wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:

1) It would not only increase variety, it also would force coaches to build and play rosters they do not want to play.

On top of that, you seem to assume that variety for the sake of variety is a good thing in the first place, a position I'd strongly disagree with. There are core races and there are freak races and I do not have any problems with playing against popular races more often than against less attractive ones.


My opinion:
If you do not want to play with 16 out of 21 rosters, then i honestly cannot help you.
There was no suggestion - to my knowledge - that forced anyone to create a specific team of a specific race. All of those were category approaches.
In a similar way, noone ever wanted to force anyone to play a 'freak race'.

Also, noone needs to be forced. A 3-6TS bonus for [B] teams of a coach that has only one or two races (or categories of races) would be fine, too. To ensure that those who lower the quality of the matchups by submitting less teams are usually the ones being handicapped by their own choice.


That might be an excellent way of implementing it. Although I sympathize with Koadah about the activated team not being the one that goes an awful lot.

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<PurpleChest> the way it splooshed got me so excited

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funnyfingers



Joined: Nov 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2009 - 17:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Koadah has only ever had 1 Blackbox team...
DukeTyrion



Joined: Feb 18, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2009 - 17:49 Reply with quote Back to top

There is still the issue at the crux of the debate about multiple teams.

If you have many [B] teams, then the scheduling will work better.

However, if you force people to play with the team they do not wish to play, they will stop playing [B] altogether.

I know that I have different moods, sometimes I like playing Rats, other times Goblins. There are certainly times when I do not wish to play Goblins, so activating Rats and getting Goblins is more likely to get me returning to [R], so the number of teams I have is not relevant.
westerner



Joined: Jul 02, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2009 - 17:50 Reply with quote Back to top

funnyfingers wrote:
Koadah has only ever had 1 Blackbox team...

I'm still glad to hear his opinion. Smile

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DukeTyrion



Joined: Feb 18, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2009 - 17:50 Reply with quote Back to top

funnyfingers wrote:
Koadah has only ever had 1 Blackbox team...


And I currently have 1 Blackbox team, due to the frustration involved in the team being selected that i do not wish to play.
Frankenstein



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2009 - 18:02 Reply with quote Back to top

CircularLogic wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:

1) It would not only increase variety, it also would force coaches to build and play rosters they do not want to play.

On top of that, you seem to assume that variety for the sake of variety is a good thing in the first place, a position I'd strongly disagree with. There are core races and there are freak races and I do not have any problems with playing against popular races more often than against less attractive ones.


My opinion:
If you do not want to play with 16 out of 21 rosters, then i honestly cannot help you.
There was no suggestion - to my knowledge - that forced anyone to create a specific team of a specific race. All of those were category approaches.
In a similar way, noone ever wanted to force anyone to play a 'freak race'.

Also, noone needs to be forced. A 3-6TS bonus for [B] teams of a coach that has only one or two races (or categories of races) would be fine, too. To ensure that those who lower the quality of the matchups by submitting less teams are usually the ones being handicapped by their own choice.

Of course you can't help me, you're suggesting additional patronizing rules, whereas I want to remove them.

I'd very much prefer full control over which teams are eligible for playing and which not, and I'd also prefer not to be bothered with a TS-formula which isn't related to the official rules in any way and massively contradicts the spirit of the game in many ways.

Seriously, when I return from work and consider to play 1 or 2 games of Blood Bowl, any scenario where I would be forced to play a casual game with a team I'm currently not interested in, is simply unacceptable to me.

On top of that, I neither think that there's an actual problem with regard to roster-balance, nor do I believe that such a balance would be desirable in the first place.
odi



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2009 - 18:18 Reply with quote Back to top

The reason why I have so few teams in B is the same reason why so many other people have only 1 or 2 teams, we dont want to have to play with some team we're not in the mood for. If we would change the scheduler so that you would only play with the team you activate, that might help with people creating more teams. But on the flip side of the coin, we might start getting even less matches scheduled, since there wont be as many teams available as there are at the moment. And we could very well run into a situation that even more rounds would be not scheduled. That's why I think the current system works just fine, those of you who want to play with a specific team can have just 1 or 2 races in B. Those who dont care what team they are playing with can have more. So it works just fine, people with few teams get a game for what ever team they want most of the time. But still the scheduler has a wider variety of teams to select from. So it's kind of a compromise.
Pirog



Joined: Jul 13, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2009 - 20:31 Reply with quote Back to top

I would play more B games if there were less dwarves and 4+ dp khemri teams. I don't have a solution to that problem, simply answering the question.

During the good times I have enjoyed Blackbox a great deal, but lately I have had 3 out of 4 matches against multi-dp khemri teams boosted by Ramtut III. That's not very fun.

As with so many other things Blackbox division runs the risk of being destroyed or at least weakened by people who are just out to maximize their own fun while thinking nothing about the opponent.
Snappy_Dresser



Joined: Feb 11, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 16, 2009 - 22:49 Reply with quote Back to top

For those of you just joining us:

It sounds like we all have a pretty good command of the main issue (most of us, anyway). My inclination is that a balance between the desire of a coach to play a specific race must be balanced against the fact that if everyone play only one team, the Box is going to suck.

A few thoughts:

1) there definitely needs to be more emphasis by the box bot put on getting the activated team a game. I've generally had 3 or so teams in the box, and there have been long stretches where my activated team got way less than a third of my matches. While I'm aware there's reasons for this, this is a concern that is probably the second most popular complaint about Blackbox, and should be addressed. Guaraunteeing the selected team shouldn't be the goal, but if it were weighted more heavily, my feeling is that this would go a ways to molifying this particular segment.

2)Which brings me to the #1 complaint. Having to deal with idiotic team builds and teams build around silly TS exploits. We need some rules to address this, just like you throw the weird guy out of your house party because he's creeping out the women, regardless of whether he actually did something. Because if you don't, the party's going to suck.

I see several measures to address this, and some combination of them will have to be used.

A) Team quotas: some kind of system wherein you can build one team from column A only if you have one team from column B or 2 from column C (or whatever). Before you hit the ceiling with "how dare you force me to play nice with people", remember, this would ideally be combined with increased weighting of the preferred team, meaning that while you would have to have more teams in the mix, no one is forcing you to activate any other team than your 14 DP Khemri. Failing quotas, Circ had a good suggestion about a TS "penalty" for one team coaches.

B) Get rid of the 0 rr discount. Come on now. We're all aware of it. And I appreciate that these teams generally suck, and that their TS is probably in the ballpark of their effectiveness. Continuing this just drive away sensible players for the eddification of a few jerks. One again, you chase off the weird guys before they scare of the girls, not when they actually do something wrong.

_________________
<PurpleChest> the way it splooshed got me so excited

"I hear that shadow is a douchebag"
-Mr Foulscumm
Frankenstein



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 17, 2009 - 00:36 Reply with quote Back to top

C) Get rid of TS and replace it with LRB5/6 TV, thereby removing the benefits for building ridiculous, unbloodbowlish rosters.
Hero164



Joined: Jan 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 17, 2009 - 00:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Many of these would be tempting.

But after more than 100 B games I quit because of the crazy TS teams. I probably got a bad run of them. But I felt that I was just having less and less fun.

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=blog&coach=39866

Reducing the exploits would be more likley to bring me back than anything else.

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Stella for President!!

Need a new challenge? Here's all the challenge you will ever need.

http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=19352
Snappy_Dresser



Joined: Feb 11, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 17, 2009 - 05:41 Reply with quote Back to top

I thought about putting in C in the original pile of stuff. However, it's just a battle that no one can win. And my recommendations are the things that need to happen sooner, rather than later.

I happen to agree with you Frank about the TV thing, but it just ain't gonna happen soon.

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<PurpleChest> the way it splooshed got me so excited

"I hear that shadow is a douchebag"
-Mr Foulscumm
prophane



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 17, 2009 - 05:43 Reply with quote Back to top

i would have to say.. nothing at all

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Alacran



Joined: Sep 27, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 17, 2009 - 07:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Hate to say it. But back when the Blackbox was started, I mentioned some of these same issues early. I was rediculed and called a 'pixel-hugger.' In the end, I really only wanted to what was best for the Box. I like this style of heads-up play, at least in theory. In practice, however, we get down to the same two major issues, and one minor issue.

1) People making team killer teams. Ok, you want to play Khemri. That's cool. However, when you have multiple DP skellies, that isn't any fun for my elf team. Usually it means I have to make a new elf team, then wait for a game to get'em started again.

2) People are not getting the diversity of races. Ideally, selecting a team means that you have no clue what you are going to get. Suffice it to say I didn't experience much 'elf-ballin'' in the Box.

And the minor issue...
3) The format of the Box draws in the most anti-social element of Fumbbl. You don't have to talk to someone to get a game in Box. You activate, and get your oppenent. You send them a whisper and set up a game. You don't have to chat with the person. Actually, if you plan on wrecking their team, it is easier to not chat with them. The people that have the social graces of the average chihuahua are able to get games in Ranked and play their nasty teams in league play. They don't need to hide behind annonymity to get a match-up.

I am much more satisfied with a loss to an oppenent that was fun to play against then a win against someone that doesn't even have the common decency to say, "Good luck and have fun."

What would get me to play the Box. Sadly, not much. I gave up. Sorry, the experiment looked good on paper. I tried and tried. I pointed out what I thought the issue was back in the day when it could be corrected, and I was laughed at.

I am thinking, based on this thread, to ditch my Orc team, I never really liked them, and give it one more go. And I know that this is either an "Alpha" or "Beta" test. I hope that when you go to the next stage, you do what you need to do to make this a more pleasurable experience.
CircularLogic



Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 17, 2009 - 23:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Frankenstein wrote:
C) Get rid of TS and replace it with LRB5/6 TV, thereby removing the benefits for building ridiculous, unbloodbowlish rosters.


Yes.. official exploits are SO much better than unofficial ones. If we switch to TV, then teams will feel even more like a carbon copy of each other.

Taking +AG on a BoB/zombie/longbeard? No.. I`d rather fire him.
Taking block/sidestep over blodge? No way!
Doubles on a saurus/BoB/longbeard/zonblitzer? Nah... I`ll just stick with the standard skills that are just cheaper TV wise.

Diversity of builds is more encouraged by TS than by TV. Maybe you don`t see that, because LRB5+ features so many new skills.. but on the current state you`d see even less variantion.

TS is what TV wants to be but never can be, because TV needs to be derived without a computer. Just fix the leader exploit for now and work on improving TS.
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