| Poll |
| What is the single biggest factor that would encourage you to play more [B] Games? |
| 1) A competitive goal beyond the single match |
|
34% |
[ 79 ] |
| 2) More racial diversity |
|
24% |
[ 57 ] |
| 3) Greater ease in getting a [B] game |
|
5% |
[ 12 ] |
| 4) Reducing TS exploits |
|
9% |
[ 21 ] |
| 5) Integration of the blackbox concept with other divisions |
|
7% |
[ 18 ] |
| 6) None - I'm happy playing in other divisions. |
|
19% |
[ 45 ] |
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| Total Votes : 232 |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Feb 17, 2009 - 23:52 |
 
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | Frankenstein wrote: | | C) Get rid of TS and replace it with LRB5/6 TV, thereby removing the benefits for building ridiculous, unbloodbowlish rosters. |
Yes.. official exploits are SO much better than unofficial ones. If we switch to TV, then teams will feel even more like a carbon copy of each other.
Taking +AG on a BoB/zombie/longbeard? No.. I`d rather fire him.
Taking block/sidestep over blodge? No way!
Doubles on a saurus/BoB/longbeard/zonblitzer? Nah... I`ll just stick with the standard skills that are just cheaper TV wise.
Diversity of builds is more encouraged by TS than by TV. Maybe you don`t see that, because LRB5+ features so many new skills.. but on the current state you`d see even less variantion.
TS is what TV wants to be but never can be, because TV needs to be derived without a computer. Just fix the leader exploit for now and work on improving TS. |
We merely have completely different philosophies.
I am 100% for KISS and official rules, whereas you fancy changes and adaptions (this is supposed to be a non-emotional, neutral statement). That's why will always disagree on such issues. I would only aree on deviations due to technical reasons or in freak/experimental environments, such as stunty.
Edit:
The important point here is that coaches will much more likely accept regulations based upon official rules, as those constitute the common denominator, the basis upon which the community is build. Deviating from this denominator means alienating peoples, which usually don't want to play CircularLogic Bowl, Christer Bowl or Frankenstein Bowl, they usually prefer the latest Blood Bowl Edition as provided by GW. Just because you think skill choices which would be considered awkward under normal circumstances are cool and should therefore be encouraged, doesn't mean that this belief is shared by the majority in any way.
Therefore, tinkering around with rules and game fundamentals is something which should exclusively be applied in aforementioned freak environments and private groups.
It would seem that you (similar to - forgive me - BigMac) somehow want a different game. However, this site just isn't (and probably never will be) the right place for that. |
Last edited by Frankenstein on %b %18, %2009 - %02:%Feb; edited 3 times in total |
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Snappy_Dresser
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 01:16 |
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And this is why we don't need to discuss the TV vs TS tar pile. Because it's really beside the point, and will never generate any consensus. Fix the 0 rr exploit, and any other obvious exploits that crop up, and work towards a less silly TS. I don't necessarily agree with circ's apraisal of TV, but it's not a fight we need to have. |
_________________
<PurpleChest> the way it splooshed got me so excited
"I hear that shadow is a douchebag"
-Mr Foulscumm |
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funnyfingers
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 05:00 |
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How about instead of saying fix the reroll exploit, can we see some real numbers to back it up. Are 0 reroll teams winning like they actually have a 10 TS advantage? I haven't seen any coach with a great record with 0 rerolls that wouldn't normally have a great record. Though if you do get a discount for 0 rerolls you may as well get a discount for 8... How often can you really rerolls 8 times in a half? |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 08:00 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: |
I am 100% for KISS and official rules, whereas you fancy changes and adaptions (this is supposed to be a non-emotional, neutral statement). That's why will always disagree on such issues. I would only aree on deviations due to technical reasons or in freak/experimental environments, such as stunty.
Edit:
The important point here is that coaches will much more likely accept regulations based upon official rules, as those constitute the common denominator, the basis upon which the community is build. Deviating from this denominator means alienating peoples, which usually don't want to play CircularLogic Bowl, Christer Bowl or Frankenstein Bowl, they usually prefer the latest Blood Bowl Edition as provided by GW. Just because you think skill choices which would be considered awkward under normal circumstances are cool and should therefore be encouraged, doesn't mean that this belief is shared by the majority in any way.
Therefore, tinkering around with rules and game fundamentals is something which should exclusively be applied in aforementioned freak environments and private groups.
It would seem that you (similar to - forgive me - BigMac) somehow want a different game. However, this site just isn't (and probably never will be) the right place for that. |
There is no tinkering around with rules and game fundamentals. Noone plays anything but Blood Bowl LRB4. There is simply no system implemented, which evaluates - fully automated - matchups that are as fair as possible. Because that`s nothing that GW ever thought of. There is NO official stance on this. TV is created to even the odds abit in a close schedule, not to indicate, if two teams with same TV have 50% winchance each.
At the moment, we run under TS, because TV is not official with the ruleset we are using. Thus it seems, that you are alike Mr. BigMac (and no, I don`t forgive you for that comparison). I am for the status quo (albeit with a small fix to the used scheduling formula) while you lobby for a change. |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 09:32 |
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The racial spread isnt that bad in B, the thing is most teams might not survive at high TR, for example, the games my skaven have had in 56 games:
Below TS160:
2 vs CD
1 vs Chaos (Kinda suprised me)
2 vs Dwarves
2 vs DE
1 vs HE
2 vs Khemri
2 vs Lizzies
2 vs Necroes
6 vs Orcs (my my, they are a popular race, arent they)
1 vs Ogre
2 vs Skaven
1 vs Zons
So in all a pretty good spread of different teams.
After TS160 it gets a lot more simple:
3 vs Chaos
2 vs CD
8 vs Dwarves
3 vs DE (I suppose that AV8 and not much tackle in B helps alot)
7 vs Khemri
7 vs Orcs
1 vs Woodies (no really, I did meet woodies in B)
1 vs Zon (Yup, the lack of tackle)
So I guess if you want to play with a softer team, some team management will help having a wider spread of opponents. At high TR you would expect that there will be a lot of high AV teams since they survive. So the options are, to manage your TS and keep it lower, or let it naturally drop from 200 -> 150 every now an then, like I do with my rats, just coming up to their 3rd recov phase, just need that 80spp SV injured so I can retire him, even a mng will do. But I dont really mind all those bashers, my rats are doing great. Besides, I do enjoyplaying most in the TR 150-170 (with rats I'd say that's about the same TS) region anyway, with über teams I think blood bowl starts getting boring. And around that TR the 0RR+Leader thingy doesnt really help the other team, since 10TS isnt that much at higher levels, with low TR or new teams it would prolly affect a lot more.
I hope no one gets this the wrong way, I LOVE B! |
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westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 16:50 |
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Good points, Odi. One idea I'd like to add is that if you're seeking diverse opponents, it probably doesn't make sense to hire stars. |
_________________
\x/es |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 18:03 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | There is no tinkering around with rules and game fundamentals. |
What I mean by that:
1) With the official rules, injuries are not desirable, with TS they very well can be. The fact alone that the TS doesn't simply ignore injuries massively contradicts an essential game philosophy.
2) A TS-based environment causes people to field strange teams you'd rarely encounter in an environment based on official standards. This changes the fundamentals of the game as well (whether that's a good or bad thing is an entirely different can of worms).
3) Forcing people to play certain teams is a rule change in my book, as this is nowhere mentioned in the official rules.
I consider Christer's FUMBBL-policy to stick to official rules as closely as possible a good thing and the only reasonable way to go. However, I think that TS completely contradicts that very policy. |
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funnyfingers
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 18:28 |
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There is no contradiction at all. Handicaps are still in use. It is a way for the computer to match up teams. Blackbox wiuld not be possible if you went by TR as Halfings, Vampires, Ogres, and Goblins would be screwed. Forcing people to play certains is part of the rules as well. You have leagues and tournaments that would do this. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 18:37 |
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| funnyfingers wrote: | | Forcing people to play certains is part of the rules as well. |
Oh really? I must have missed that chapter in the rulebook. Would you kindly provide the page(s)?| funnyfingers wrote: | | You have leagues and tournaments that would do this. |
As mentioned earlier, those are small subgroups with special rules agreed upon by their members. That's a decisive difference compared to enforcing rules upon an entire community.
| funnyfingers wrote: | | Blackbox wiuld not be possible if you went by TR as Halfings, Vampires, Ogres, and Goblins would be screwed. |
Those races are supposed to be not fully competitive and are meant as a challenge. So you just confirm my statement about changing fundamentals of the game. And at least halflings aren't that bad at low TR anyway. |
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Hero164
Joined: Jan 20, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 18:52 |
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| funnyfingers wrote: | | How about instead of saying fix the reroll exploit, can we see some real numbers to back it up. Are 0 reroll teams winning like they actually have a 10 TS advantage? I haven't seen any coach with a great record with 0 rerolls that wouldn't normally have a great record. Though if you do get a discount for 0 rerolls you may as well get a discount for 8... How often can you really rerolls 8 times in a half? |
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=528508
There you go... |
_________________
BEEDOGS FOREVER!!
Stella for President!!
Need a new challenge? Here's all the challenge you will ever need.
http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=19352 |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 18:53 |
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| westerner wrote: | | Good points, Odi. One idea I'd like to add is that if you're seeking diverse opponents, it probably doesn't make sense to hire stars. |
But gobbos are much more fun with them stars.
The thing is, if you are into team building (which I'm sure a lot of people got used to in R), then B is not for you. But if you just enjoy playing BB and like to take on all challanges, then B is generally a funnier place to play than R. In table top with my friends, we always try to win, and to destroy the oppo's team while doing it, since in a closed enviroment, you're gonna bump into them again. So maybe next time you'd have a slight edge. Though B isnt as closed as when playing with friends on TT.
I used to accept all challanges in R when I still played there,a long time ago, and it got boring because people were just trying to get an "edge". So you ended up playing up quite a lot. In B, it's the scheduler throwing things at me, I love it.
Playing AV7 teams hasnt left me that much into disadvantage with the bashers, after 169 games, I'm at:
TDs: +78
BH -47
SI +3
RIP +3
And that's after been blocked/blitzed 1116 times more than I've blocked my oppos.... Blodge goes a long way in B.Then again I'm 118 fouls ahead. With an average 3.78 fouls a game. Actually in my opinion, games which involve a lot of fouling, the low AV team actually gaines an advantage compared to just plain blocking, since the low AV teams have an equal chance of getting the oppo player out. In blocking you're way behind, because of mighty blow and that AV9. |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 18:57 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: |
| funnyfingers wrote: | | Blackbox wiuld not be possible if you went by TR as Halfings, Vampires, Ogres, and Goblins would be screwed. |
Those races are supposed to be not fully competitive and are meant as a challenge. So you just confirm my statement about changing fundamentals of the game. And at least halflings aren't that bad at low TR anyway. |
No they arent  |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 20:46 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: | | A TS-based environment causes people to field strange teams you'd rarely encounter in an environment based on official standards. |
True, but you cannot get rid of TS as a result. If it's another rating you'll get a different set of quirks. Blackbox needs a rating system for matching, it's the fundamental principle of the Blackbox. So you can't rid yourself of the need for a rating system. You can change what it measures, but I think the current target (chance of winning the next game) is a pretty sensible matchup criteria.
What you could do (and what I somewhat advocated elsewhere) is to have the rating work behind-the-scenes, secretly, so that no-one could figure it out or, more importantly, "game" it. |
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funnyfingers
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 21:04 |
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Snappy_Dresser
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 18, 2009 - 21:28 |
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I'm not going to touch the TS/TV debate with a 10 foot pole, since it has nothing at all to do with the more pressing needs of Blackbox, and is a smokescreen.
I will, however, say that with TS as it currently exists, if you have a team get beat up bad in a match, 9 times out of 10 your recovery is ogres, and you generally get pasted.
As for the zero reroll exploit, it's not that the teams are doing all that well (although probably better than they should), it's that you are condemning the other coach to a 2 hour boring match. You may as well roll dice for 2 hours. If the 0 reroll coach rolls well, he wins, if he doesn't, he loses. Wheeeeee!
because of forced match ups, it is both appropriate and correct to introduce elements of social engineering in to the box (the alternative is another irrelevant Faction game). Currently, because everything is permissable, the lowest common denominator is thriving.
This is what we need to decide on, because this is what will have the box succeeding or failing. |
_________________
<PurpleChest> the way it splooshed got me so excited
"I hear that shadow is a douchebag"
-Mr Foulscumm |
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