| Poll |
| Should there be a concession rule? |
| Yes |
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56% |
[ 74 ] |
| No |
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16% |
[ 22 ] |
| Pie |
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26% |
[ 34 ] |
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| Total Votes : 130 |
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WardenUSA
Joined: Jan 24, 2008
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 Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 12:51 |
 
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I have played almost 100 games in the box and this is the first time this has happened to me. I was playing a game with my 200TS orcs and I started off with a very nice 2 point advantage by turn 6 on the first half of the game. The game had gone about 25-28 minutes so a little slow but about on schedule. At this point my opponent tells me that he has work and we can play some other time. He then spends the next 22 minutes telling me that he can do this. I had multiple people tell him in chat that it was not acceptable and that if he really needed to go then he needed to Conceed and not just disconnect. After 22 minutes he told me that I couldn't do anything and there was nothing in the rules and he wouldn't get banned.
The admins were very helpful, but I was informed that it is the current policy to not forfeit games in Blackbox, but to just un-schedule them. The only reason to not unschedule them would be to try to get your opponent to play again. They told me that the coach in question would recieve what was coming to him, it was just not the current policy to conceed the game.
I would like to see if there is support to changing the blackbox rule to that of concession in the same manner as [R]anked. Note, this would only apply to people who disconnect on purpose and there is evidence of such as a screen shot ect. Exactly like in [R]anked. |
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Deathmoore
Joined: Jan 26, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 13:02 |
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I don't play in [B], but from my understanding, isn't the normal rule for any division, "If you don't have enough time to play a game, don't start a game"? Assuming 4 minute turns (when it runs long), and 16 turns per half, you're looking at at about an hour per half. |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 13:03 |
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I'm sure the administration of B will get a bit more strict after the alpha phase is finnished. So far I havent had anyone quit/gone missing on me. And I dont think many of the B players would have that mentality. Since B is more of a do or die oriented. Sure, I've had some people conceed on me for no real reason. Others have conceeded for a good reason.
I would hope that if someone was playing, and a real life reason to drop out would come along, that people would just conceed. Leaving the other guys team to be scheduled agaisnt you leaves his teams stuck. Sure, you can ask an admin to unschedule you, but one may not be around (usually there is, thanks to all the admins). I've conceeded a couple of games on fumbbl because of real life issues popping up. I've even had the oppo tell me "If you really have to go, let's just quickly finish the game by clicking TO until the game is finished, so you dont have to conceed", which was nice, since I was 2-0 up and if I had had to conceed, I would prolly have lost a couple of players (I had won the game allready, just didnt have the time to finish the last 4 turns of the 2nd half. Cant remember who you were, but if you're reading this, that was a really gentleman thing to do. |
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clarkin
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 13:05 |
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An average game between coaches who know the rules takes about 1 hour. With slow players or new players, or if it's a tourney and goes to extra time 90 minutes is more likely.
Disconnecting from a blackbox game that's going badly and getting it unscheduled (ie conceding without the LRB concession penalties) is very, very poor form and I'd love to see stronger penalties for it. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 13:43 |
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I wouldn't mind to have to re-schedule a game later, if it didn't mean I can't play Blackbox in between.
This sucks, IMO. |
_________________
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 13:46 |
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| Deathmoore wrote: | | I don't play in [B], but from my understanding, isn't the normal rule for any division, "If you don't have enough time to play a game, don't start a game"? Assuming 4 minute turns (when it runs long), and 16 turns per half, you're looking at at about an hour per half. |
Yeah, that's the basic rule, but there is also a real world out there somewhere. Something might just come up, flood, earth quake etc... In which case the player should conceed, or if both coaches agree, just keep clicking that TO and finnish the game in 30s. |
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WardenUSA
Joined: Jan 24, 2008
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 13:53 |
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| odi wrote: | | Deathmoore wrote: | | I don't play in [B], but from my understanding, isn't the normal rule for any division, "If you don't have enough time to play a game, don't start a game"? Assuming 4 minute turns (when it runs long), and 16 turns per half, you're looking at at about an hour per half. |
Yeah, that's the basic rule, but there is also a real world out there somewhere. Something might just come up, flood, earth quake etc... In which case the player should conceed, or if both coaches agree, just keep clicking that TO and finnish the game in 30s. |
And if there was something like that then the game should just be rescheduled or or un-scheduled. This is only in cases where there is proof that they did it on purpose.
An excuse of "I have to go to work" and then chatting for 22 minutes doesn't hold any water. IMHO |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 14:04 |
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| WardenUSA wrote: |
And if there was something like that then the game should just be rescheduled or or un-scheduled. This is only in cases where there is proof that they did it on purpose. |
Rescheduling would prolly be bad for the other coach, since he is more likely to want to play another game. Unscheduling would give "droppers" and easy way to get out of a bad or good situation. The easiest way to solve these is either both coaches clicking on TO until the game ends. Ofcourse some people wont give the oppo a chance to win the game that way, in that case the coach leaving should just conceded.
Atleast if you are winning, and tell the other guy you have to go and will conceded, that should prove that you actually has to go  |
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Woodstock
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 14:15 |
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Forced concessions in [B]? I really dislike that. Clicking turns? A big NO, never ever.
Just because non-admins don't see what happens, that doesn't mean people aren't punished. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 14:25 |
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| WardenUSA wrote: | | I would like to see if there is support to changing the blackbox rule to that of concession in the same manner as [R]anked. Note, this would only apply to people who disconnect on purpose and there is evidence of such as a screen shot ect. Exactly like in [R]anked. |
The thing is that if you want that concession you would have to make a genuine attempt to reschedule..... just like [R]anked. This was exactly what he wanted anyway.
| sk8bcn wrote: | I wouldn't mind to have to re-schedule a game later, if it didn't mean I can't play Blackbox in between.
This sucks, IMO. |
I think this is the most important problem. Rescheduling should be fine and is nearly always the best way to deal with games when stuff comes up in real life. However, currently this comes with the real sting that you can no longer play in [B}  If we could get this changed then a disconnects policy similar to [R] would work fine. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 14:36 |
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| Woodstock wrote: | Forced concessions in [B]? I really dislike that. Clicking turns? A big NO, never ever.
Just because non-admins don't see what happens, that doesn't mean people aren't punished. |
Yeah, I can see how that clicking TO could be abused too easily. But then again, you see it in normal games too, where one guy wont stand up his players, because he knows that he has allready lost, and doesnt want his pixels hurt.
I wonder how many games I've conceeded in fumbbl, not many would be my guess. Since I dont care if my team is destroyed, I'm not giving the satisfaction or the extra cash to my oppo I rather he keep fouling my players until T16. |
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Oblitzamanger
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 14:51 |
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I think one of the main problems is that the winning coach can't be rewarded as that would unbalance the Blackbox system whereas the defecting coach does need to be punished. Its a problem for sure. |
_________________
paulhicks wrote: I AM THE KING OF THE MONKEY PEOPLE AND I MUST SLAY THIS PRETENDER TO MY CROWN
That means you. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 14:59 |
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| Woodstock wrote: | | Just because non-admins don't see what happens, that doesn't mean people aren't punished. |
Justice must be seen to be done though.
I don't want people put in the stocks, but as long as everything happens behind closed doors, you can't be surprised that there is a lack of faith or confidence in the workings of the system.
Some non-admins (who have been around for a bit, know the right people and spend time in the right private IRC channels) have access to at least occasional tidbits of information on the quiet, but for most users this isn't true, so it's very easy for beliefs that action is never taken and that reporting is a waste of time to develop. |
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Rijssiej
Joined: Jan 04, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 15:07 |
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yeah no more secrets!  |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2009 - 15:22 |
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| Rijssiej wrote: | | yeah no more secrets! |
Actually, I do think that having admin decisions made in a public channel - where anyone could idle, but which was muted for all apart from admins and those involved in the "case" - would be beneficial in a number of ways:
- people are less likely to be abusive in public channels (I am told that one of the burdens of being an admin is the abuse received from people hauled into #fumbbladmin - conversely, sometimes people have complained about being abused by an admin: in that event, they would be protected too)
- sometimes, in long-running disputes, logs from #fumbbladmin do get quoted elsewhere. Are they ever altered? It can be become one person's word about what happened against another's. A public channel again helps to avoid this
- such a channel would give coaches a better idea of the volume and type of work that the staff have to deal with (many members of staff and those who support them often make reference to this, but being told about it is very different from actually seeing (a bit of) it). It would also serve to show that problems do get dealt with, and thus encourage people to report
I know that there is next to no chance Christer would implement such a system, as he prioritises coach privacy about such subjects (and that is also a concern). There would certainly be other effects of such a channel that many might consider downsides, such as second-guessing of admin decisions in other forums. But this should serve to illustrate that the way things are done at the moment is not the only possible way, and any way of handling things is going to have certain consequences - for a secret system, the first is lack of confidence. |
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