paulhicks
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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 Posted:
Apr 27, 2009 - 22:06 |
 
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Apr 28, 2009 - 12:53 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | | BroadAsImLong wrote: | | shadow46x2 wrote: |
to say that people shouldn't be allowed to use the division to learn new ways to play the game, is a little overzealous don't you think?...
--j |
no. imho. but it depends on the emphasis or goal of the division. Is it there for everyone to learn anything? Or is it for new people to learn the basics, then they can progress onwards and upwards.
And im sure shadow that you could find a friend, or a cherry, to play your ogres in R. Since you aren't new to the site or the game. |
why though?
by learning new tactics in academy, i would be achieving multiple goals...
i would be taking my learning time to the appropriate division, and refraining from learning time in what is proposed as a competitive division....
i am encouraging traffic in the division...
also, i could use that time to help people who are new to the game, by giving them pointers while learning myself....
how is any of that bad?
--j |
It's not a problem at all if a coach plays with the '[A] spirit' and helps out a rookie or plays another experienced player.
If the coach just gives the rookie no chance and/or trashes their team then they should be playing somewhere else.
The more people who come in to help out the better IMO.
People always seem to ask me can they transfer their [A] team into [L]. I think that it would be good to allow it as long as it is restricted to newer coaches.
(It would be nice to be able to transfer [R] teams into [L] as well for that matter) |
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Roseph
Joined: Oct 19, 2006
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Apr 28, 2009 - 20:39 |
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| koadah wrote: | | shadow46x2 wrote: | | BroadAsImLong wrote: | | shadow46x2 wrote: |
to say that people shouldn't be allowed to use the division to learn new ways to play the game, is a little overzealous don't you think?...
--j |
no. imho. but it depends on the emphasis or goal of the division. Is it there for everyone to learn anything? Or is it for new people to learn the basics, then they can progress onwards and upwards.
And im sure shadow that you could find a friend, or a cherry, to play your ogres in R. Since you aren't new to the site or the game. |
why though?
by learning new tactics in academy, i would be achieving multiple goals...
i would be taking my learning time to the appropriate division, and refraining from learning time in what is proposed as a competitive division....
i am encouraging traffic in the division...
also, i could use that time to help people who are new to the game, by giving them pointers while learning myself....
how is any of that bad?
--j |
It's not a problem at all if a coach plays with the '[A] spirit' and helps out a rookie or plays another experienced player.
If the coach just gives the rookie no chance and/or trashes their team then they should be playing somewhere else.
The more people who come in to help out the better IMO.
People always seem to ask me can they transfer their [A] team into [L]. I think that it would be good to allow it as long as it is restricted to newer coaches.
(It would be nice to be able to transfer [R] teams into [L] as well for that matter) |
Well part of that is more active experienced coaches in Academy. I know I look alot more at games being played in the division. Also with the reins being given to Biggie I think we can assure that the spirit of the divisison will be upheld |
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Mithrilpoint
Joined: Mar 16, 2004
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Apr 29, 2009 - 08:25 |
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| G_Force wrote: | As an alternative to non progression teams or additional slots for teachers how about a pool of [A] (like the tourney filler goblins) that "approved teachers" can access.
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I really like this idea. And a shameless bump for an important thread.
Mithrilpoint |
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Count_Von_Halseburg
Joined: Jun 28, 2006
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Apr 29, 2009 - 10:06 |
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As this is a community and people only get out what they put in, I think its fair to say that some coaches put in more than others. (Some in the form of sponsorship, some in running leagues, some in pushing the forum threads on, some in creating new icons /clients etc). There is no reason why people shouldnt be teaching the new coaches.
I can teach people when I am about. (I know Im not the best coach in the world but at least I'm nice... mostly)... Perhaps in order to drive the [A] Div on though and get big enough pool of teachers there needs to be some form of incentive for those coaches.
I don't know what, but even in this fluffy world a badge or an award saying that you are at least a nice enough person to consider helping for your coach bio could be enough?
Or if it gave additional flat rate CR increase... so a "teacher" because he is benefitting the community has a flat rate CR of 160 instead of 150. This is to show he is helping the community as a whole...
I dunno... just think there would be more interest from the seasoned coaches...
Feel free to ignore this though... because I dont know much about much... have a chocolate!
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Zinkia
Joined: Jan 11, 2009
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Apr 29, 2009 - 10:18 |
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I think the idea with the teachers in [A] is very good
it would learn more to new players then playing agienst no skilled players
It would both help new players to play more expirenced coaches and get pointers on the chat,
or have a teacher watch your post match and telling you about the game, mistakes, ideas and so on.
and i dont think that it would be a good idea to be abel to move players out of [A]
i better like to see a semi stacis teams,
maybe something with each game you get 2 skills then ned players have possibility to try the skills both in the game without playing 100 games, to after have nothing to use the team for.
and the possibility to try how skills works in the client. |
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BiggieB
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
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Apr 30, 2009 - 12:55 |
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Keep the ideas & the good stuff coming guys! |
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Hogshine
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Apr 30, 2009 - 13:35 |
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I don't like the idea of awards or CR increases for being a teacher in [A], but with BiggieB being appointed as an official "leader" of this division, I think there could certainly be scope for appointing designated "teachers", who are there to help people with very basic site-usage, such as setting up the client, playing their first game, idling in #fumbblacademy to answer rules/client queries etc. However, I don't see how different this would be to just using the coaches currently in #fumbblacademy, and giving voice to those who're experienced coaches so newbies can easily recognise who the "teachers" are.
Also, there could potentially be a system for newbies who can't access chat to contact a teacher via a system similar to Support Tickets (said with little idea how they work behind the scenes...). By that, I mean that the new coach can submit a query, which then gets forwarded as a PM to one of the "teachers" who're online and available to help. Perhaps there could be a notification only visible to voiced/admins in #fumbblacademy? Then the query can be answered, and someone can either help them get IRC set up, or just answer their questions directly. |
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Roseph
Joined: Oct 19, 2006
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May 01, 2009 - 03:07 |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 02, 2009 - 02:35 |
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First of all, congrats to Biggie. I think it's a well-deserved and much appreciated appointment.
Going back over a few previously-made points...
| BroadAsImLong wrote: | 2hours helping someone learn more of the game during a game, and then 1 year later they come back to rip 16 players on one of Texans majors teams would be worth it in my eyes  |
Very true.
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | | Mithrilpoint wrote: | | ...To put it bluntly, coaches 3 and 4 are not welcome in my idea of an academy division. The academy are there to teach new coaches the core rules of the game, assists, passing, planning ahead, fouling, skill synergies, doing safe moves first - all that jazz.... |
...
to say that people shouldn't be allowed to use the division to learn new ways to play the game, is a little overzealous don't you think?... |
(Please forgive me snipping the quotes. Just trying to address two small points, rather than quote anyone out of context.)
How wishy-washy am I that I actually agree with both? Technically, I side with shadow on this one. It is a little overzealous. In spirit, however, I agree with Mith.
To distill the two notions down into a single coherent one, I think it's safe to say that anyone is welcome to play in the new [A] - whatever it winds up being. The division itself, however, should be primarily structured towards helping coach types 1 and 2 (as per Mith's numbering scheme) first and foremost.
Opinions may vary but setting up the right environment in which to teach someone how to be a competitive member of the league seems like a huge benefit to everyone and should, accordingly, be the focus of the Academy division. Coach types 3, 4 and 5 (as added Koadah - more on that guy in a minute...) are naturally welcome - as is everyone else.
I think Mith took it a bit too far in phrasing it as "unwelcome". I think that a division which is tailored towards Mith's ends but allows room for Shadow's is the best possible compromise.
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Koadah: In case I haven't ever mentioned it before, you rock. The 145 Tourneys are great, your dedication and patience are astounding and if I ever get the chance, I'd be happy to buy you a drink.
Koadah's 5th type of coach really seems best-fit by... well... exactly Koadah has already been doing successfully for the past four years. Personally, I think he should be officially recognized as an excellent first step outside of the Academy and given whatever assistance is necessary to allow things to continue if he were to ever lose the desire to put as much effort into it.
I'm not sure if you've got a wishlist of ways to handle things more efficiently. If so, please speak up and everyone, please listen to the guy who has been successfully achieving the exact thing that we're currently prattling on about. He's got some useful input to add, no doubt.
Coach 5 types sound best fit by either A or L. In my opinion, they needn't be the focus of A, however. I think there's already enough work to be done just in getting people up to the skill level I assume you're seeing in the 145 leagues (unless I'm gravely mistaken about the level of the entrants - having never tried it myself).
That's just my opinion on the matter, however. I could be way off base, since I'm making a few assumptions, having not actively been around.
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Wishlist for the "teacher's stable" ideas:
I think the idea of having a stable of preset, non-advancing, TR100 A teams which anyone can play for a single game that "counts" is brilliant. More of a template than a team, really. This allows new players to work on building their teams and learn the first stages of team development while allowing those playing a teaching role to always have a low-level team available. Keeping a team ready for new opponents is surprisingly difficult at times.
(This is all, naturally, dependent upon if it's not too hard to code a half-non-progression team without an owner which can play multiple games at once, then great. I love it. No pressure, eh?)
Basically you can choose to "play using Academy Team Template" which gives you a dropdown menu with pre-built rosters in a number of races and you can choose "human A" or "skaven C", for example.
In fact, I'd like to see Biggie (and possibly a team of Academy Lemurs) with rights to flag a coach in any A particular A match as a teacher in that particular match. In that one case, the staff is recognizing that the player was teaching a new player how to play the game on FUMBBL. (Perhaps automated for any coach over x games playing an A game with a template team against a coach with less than y games - and then allowing administrative override that flag if someone is clearly abusing it.)
The "teacher" flags allow adept/master/etc... Teacher awards. I'd also like to see that each step of the Teaching award allows you a special team slot (beyond the limit of 30) to make your own template team, as described above. This is a non-progression team that can only be played in A and allows uploads against regular A teams. That way, when you use the dropdown described above, your menu starts with your custom templates and then lists the defaults.
As a random side note, I'd love to see the template teams clearly named (ie: something like "[A] Instructors Team", only sexier) and have the names of the players be randomly chosen from coaches table. The instructors are made up of the players of the league. Seems appropriate.
That all might be a bit far out there, however. Just running with the excellent ideas already presented.
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That's it. Good luck, Biggie. |
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GoodWill
Joined: Feb 23, 2009
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May 04, 2009 - 15:38 |
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Something has to be done about the academy channel.
Being a bit traumatized from some other online-gaming-sites I would always refrain from even asking for a game or anything once I joined fumbbl a couple months ago. The reason being:
There are almost only people with a shitload of games on their record who are not explicitly "there to help" -
This reminded me of "Newbs only" games on any real-time strategy where some morons would frequently push their record by cherry-picking their way through the noobies.
Get a short introduction to channel or something telling:
- members in the channel marked "[T]" are approved teaching personnel and will play you to teach
Then have those guys marked [T] if that is even possible technically. |
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G_Force
Joined: Aug 19, 2004
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May 04, 2009 - 22:36 |
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you mean something like this....
Topic is 'Welcome to FumbblAcademy: a place of Higher learning | People with + are good to ask | Check out the faq http://fumbbl.com/help:Strategy for some awesome tips'
which is the current state of play. anyone in #fumbblacademy is deamed by BiggieB to be suitable for new players to ask for help and for a tuitional game.
There is also no benefit to cherry picking in A as the stats don;t count for anything and the teams can;t go anywhere other that [U] which is not exactly a hive of activity or meaningful stats. The main competetive divisions are [R] [B] and to a lesser extent [F]. [L]eague is for closed leagues. Academy and what goes on there other than new coaches hopefully improving will affect any of these other divisions in any way. |
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arw
Joined: Jan 07, 2007
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May 05, 2009 - 01:21 |
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'[A] Reapers Tale' is a Team of mine that states in it's bio:
"If we are on Gamefinder we already opened a game. Join at will. (...) Proxy/Server: xxx"
Attracts newcomers. Guess it is a nice way to play [A] games since I don't challenge in [A] anyway and lots of new coaches seem not to find their way into the chat.
Last game I forgot to remove my teams from GF while playing however since I obviously opened the game before entering GF... a better solution might be possible.
Anyway: "EasyUp-Games" without too much trouble searching for are just perfect for [A].
Making it easy to find a first game should be encouraged. |
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GoodWill
Joined: Feb 23, 2009
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May 06, 2009 - 03:32 |
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| G_Force wrote: | you mean something like this....
Topic is 'Welcome to FumbblAcademy: a place of Higher learning | People with + are good to ask | Check out the faq http://fumbbl.com/help:Strategy for some awesome tips'
which is the current state of play. anyone in #fumbblacademy is deamed by BiggieB to be suitable for new players to ask for help and for a tuitional game.
There is also no benefit to cherry picking in A as the stats don;t count for anything and the teams can;t go anywhere other that [U] which is not exactly a hive of activity or meaningful stats. The main competetive divisions are [R] [B] and to a lesser extent [F]. [L]eague is for closed leagues. Academy and what goes on there other than new coaches hopefully improving will affect any of these other divisions in any way. |
Looooooooool.
Yeah true, it is already kind of there. 
Even though I never really noticed the "+" before on anybody in the channel ...
Are those guys permanently on or could it be they never were when I came there?
Concerning cherrypicking:
Its not about any kind of ranking- or teamprogression issue at all.
The noobies mindset doesnt care about some ominous number between 130 and 170.
Who would really care about the rating when you can just as well be proud of a 80% win-percentage?
I think cherrypicking exists, especially in the academy-division.
Then, at least I had quite some troubles even understanding what the description of the divisions in the help-section actually mean to tell me ...
"Unranked" can be quite a miracle at this stage.
So I suppose the noobies mindset doesn't care about division and the possibility to enter a tournament some day either.
Much more important is to understand the client and gameplay which is hardly gonna happen when being bashed down by a hard-core "cherrypicker",
by which I mean people that just want to crush somebody. (benefit = ego + win%)
You dont wanna lose your first game to somebody who knows every trick in the book and doesn't really bother to help you while boning you - believe me  |
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G_Force
Joined: Aug 19, 2004
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May 06, 2009 - 14:04 |
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I totally see what you are saying but A stats are not recorded (other than a teams w/l/d) but no-one who has been here that long is going to give any consideration to a [A] team record. I really thought that [A] is the last place we would see any kind of cherry picking. That said, there's nowt as strange as folk.
No wthat BiggieB is in charge of the academy i think this kind of behaviour is likely to be more closely monitored and offenders dealt with suitably. |
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