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SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: May 16, 2009 - 12:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Operating System

Windows XP Professional SP2

Java version (output from java -version)

java version "1.6.0_06"
Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_06-b02)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 10.0-b22, mixed mode, sharing)

Bug description
Same wrong passing ranges as in JavaBBowl. The Tabletop ranges are here.

According to the rules:
Quote:
Plastic Range Ruler: The ruler is used to measure the range when a player throws the ball. When you are instructed to measure the range, place the 0 at one end over the centre of the square of the player throwing the ball and the red line that runs up the middle of the ruler over the centre of the square of the player the ball is being thrown to. If the line between two passing ranges crosses any part of the receiving players square, then you should use the higher range.


EDIT: Correct rangeset is here:
http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=378075#378075

And the calculations made by me are here:
http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=378152#378152

_________________
"I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?' - for he is willing to succumb."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4.


Last edited by SzieberthAdam on May 19, 2009 - 00:22; edited 1 time in total
SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: May 17, 2009 - 16:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Hmm, i digged upon this a bit, and seems that KFoged's ranges aren't the good ones either.

Most of the sources include a different but "almost" exact rangeset:
http://www.dangermouse.net/games/bloodbowl/rules.html
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Hangar/1615/range.htm
http://www.dtg.org.au/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?3541

The client's rangestet seems still wrong.

To get out of this inconsistency I made the following calculations strictly according to the rules:

EDIT: Deleted due to agigng. See my post here: http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=378152#378152

All i should know is the exact size of a square of the field, and the exact dimensions of an original range ruler. Unfortunately i havent any nearby atm. I need very exact (millimeter) data.

For the pitch i recommend to measure at least 20 squares together to get the best result. Any help is welcome.

As i know the side of a fieldsquare is 1 and 1/8 inhces which should be 28.575 millimeters so theoretically 20 squares together should be 571.5 millimeters. If it is true, i still need the dimensions of the range ruler.

Cheers,
RS

Edit: For calculating the squares of interceptions, to know the width of the ruler would be useful. Thanks.

_________________
"I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?' - for he is willing to succumb."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4.


Last edited by SzieberthAdam on May 19, 2009 - 00:20; edited 2 times in total
PhrollikK



Joined: Nov 04, 2006

Post   Posted: May 17, 2009 - 18:50 Reply with quote Back to top

RamonSalazar wrote:
Edit: For calculating the squares of interceptions, to know the width of the ruler would be useful. Thanks.


Two inches iirc.

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SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: May 17, 2009 - 20:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Here is the Excel file if someone is interested how the ranges are calculated:

http://rapidshare.com/files/234107773/bb_passranges.xls

Cheers,
RS

_________________
"I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?' - for he is willing to succumb."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4.
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: May 17, 2009 - 20:49
FUMBBL Staff
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I measure my ruler as follows:

2" wide

16.5" long, divided as follows:

1" Start, with the thrower window in the center (0.5" in).
4" Quick pass
4" Short pass
4" Long pass
3.25" Long bomb
0.25" Extra space

Mind you, I am using a ruler with unknown accuracy, and converting from cm to inches using some common sense.
SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: May 17, 2009 - 22:36 Reply with quote Back to top

According to the dimensions which was posted by Christer, and assuming that the length of a field square's side is 1 1/8 inches:

Image

The calculations:
http://rapidshare.com/files/234144682/bb_passranges_002.xls

Fortunately the same result came out for the zero point fitting and the zero bound fitting, however according to the rules the first one should be followed.

I am 99% sure that the rangeset above is the one and only (if the dimensions are correct), but if you are good at geometrics and Excel, please check it if it's ok.

Cheers,
RS

_________________
"I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?' - for he is willing to succumb."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4.
Grumbledook



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: May 17, 2009 - 22:58 Reply with quote Back to top

there is a BBRC approved range chart somewhere

can use that then just have to worry about interceptions after
uvenlord



Joined: Oct 15, 2008

Post   Posted: May 18, 2009 - 11:03 Reply with quote Back to top

RamonSalazar wrote:
According to the dimensions which was posted by Christer, and assuming that the length of a field square's side is 1 1/8 inches:

Image

The calculations:
http://rapidshare.com/files/234144682/bb_passranges_002.xls

Fortunately the same result came out for the zero point fitting and the zero bound fitting, however according to the rules the first one should be followed.

I am 99% sure that the rangeset above is the one and only (if the dimensions are correct), but if you are good at geometrics and Excel, please check it if it's ok.

Cheers,
RS
i did some fieldwork with my ruler and it differs some from your calculations.
example: square x13,y3 is not a long bomb. the ending line crosses the square, not much but its at least 4-5 mm short of covering the whole square. (when i lay the ruler down the end of long bomb is exactly in the lower right corner of square x13,y2)

with my ruler:
square 29x29 mm
ruler 405 mm 16 inch (16.1/4 with the extra space...)not 16.1/2 as christers.
1 inch start,~4 inch each quick to long, and ~3.1/8 for the long bomb (doesn't add upp but quick to long is a little shorter then 4 inch some101 mm so...

trying to take some pictures for you to see.
i'll be back Smile
uvenlord



Joined: Oct 15, 2008

Post   Posted: May 18, 2009 - 11:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Grumbledook wrote:
there is a BBRC approved range chart somewhere

can use that then just have to worry about interceptions after
found this:
Image
Khudzlin



Joined: May 24, 2007

Post   Posted: May 18, 2009 - 17:55 Reply with quote Back to top

i did some calculations and it seems to count the distance from the center of the thrower's square to the furthest corner of the receiver's square

the range upper limits (in squares) seem to be:
Quick 4
Short 7.5
Long 10.8
Bomb 13.6

dunno if it's really that, but it fits with the chart (i chose the simplest numbers for the limits, there's a bit of leeway)
SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: May 18, 2009 - 19:26 Reply with quote Back to top

I am done with calculating the passing ranges, i think.

To summarize:

THE GEOMETRICAL PROBLEM:
Image

d is the distance which has to be used to calculate the range. It has 3 components as you can see on the figure. The range is the last bound which crosses the red middle line between the the start and the endpoints of distance 'd' on line 'c' ('D') ('c' representing the red middle line). You can notice that the last line with right angle to 'c' could be the last one which touches the catcher's square. This is why we should use < relation instead of <=.

THE PROBLEM OF FITTING:
There is a small difference between the dimensions of the thrower window and the field squares: According to the measures, the thrower window is 1 inch long with a zero point at it's center. The size of a field square is about 1 1/8 inches and/or 29mm (measures are differ at the moment). This means that it is not the same to fitting the zero points, or fitting the zero bound (the bound between the thrower window and the range ruler area) to the edge of the thrower (which is assumed to be an exact circle with the same size as a field square). See the figure below:

Image

Sometimes this causes differencies in the rangeset, sometimes not. According the rules zero point fitting have to be used. At the first time i calculated with zero bound fitting, but it is corrected by now.

NOTES ON THE CALCULATIONS:
I figured out that why the inconsistency about this question. Sometimes 1-2mm decide between ranges. There are differences between the tabletop editions too (including the dimensions of the ruler, the pitch etc.). It seems that there is not an exact rangeset for Blood Bowl according to the printed tabletop games. There is however an original rangeset! Thanks for posting it Uvenlord!

RESULTS:
Calculating however is not a waste of time. I could ruled out some of the rangesets around the internet and other forums and managed to reduce the possible rangesets to 2-3 with little differences between them. I am sure that the ranges in SkyJunkie's JavaBBowl client and the actual LRB5 client made by Kalimar are wrong. I calculated the range units according to the official rangeset.

PARAMETERS OF THE OFFICIAL RANGES (Useful for programmers Smile ):
It seems that Uvenlords dimensions are the right ones, which are 1-4-4-4-3.125. However as i mentioned before the units of the ruler differ from the units of the field. Using my formula (i'm sure it is correct) i simulated the official rangeset and calculated the necessary parameter for the conversion.

The parameter to multiplicating the 1-4-4-etc. values must between 0,8688192 and 0,8738432 thus 1/parameter must be between 1,144370065 and 1,150987455. You can see that an 1/1,145 (which is equivalent with assuming that a field square is 1,145 inches or 29,083 mm long) parameter is good for calculating with. Using my formula for 'd' with this parameter will result the official rangeset.

Here it is:
Code:
If(Or(a=0;b=0)=TRUE
then
 d=Max(a;b) + 0,5
else
 d=
   +Sqrt(a^2+b^2)
   +1/2 * Sqrt(1+b^2/a^2)
   +1/2 * (1-Abs(b/a)) / Sqrt(1+a^2/b^2)
 
Parameter is 1/1,145 representing an
1,145 inches (29,083mm) long fieldsquare.
p=0,873362445414847 = 1/1,145

                Weights         Bounds(p)
--------------------------------------------
Ruler start     -0,5            -0,436681223
Zero point      0               0
0 Bound -- Qp   0,5             0,436681223
Qp -- Sp        4               3,930131004
Sp -- Lp        4               7,423580786
Lp -- LB        4               10,91703057
LB -- Out       3,125           13,64628821
Ruler end       0,125           13,75545852


The bound values are all in field units aswell as 'a' and 'b' in the 'd' formula! 'a' is the horizontal distance in field squares and 'b' is the vertical.

p parameter was used to multiply the weights.

Code:
If d <= ActualBound Then LowerRange
If d >  ActualBound Then HigherRange


The ruler's width is 2 * p of course.

Everything is in the following Excel file:

RamonSalazar's Blood Bowl Passing Range Calculator and Range Ruler Designer Kit Smile :
http://rapidshare.com/files/235275156/bb_passranges_007.xls

Cheers,
RS

Edit: @Khudzlin, your ranges are good, here are the allowed intervals:
Code:
        Bound cross     Bound cross
            min             max
0b-Qp   -0,5            1,5
Qp-Sp   3,794733192     4,298926521
Sp-Lp   7,379024326     7,5
Lp-LB   10,78638743     10,97553024
LB-Out  13,5752803      13,65384615


I would recommend 7,4 for Sp-Lp instead of 7,5.

My values, however, are keepeng the scale of the original range ruler, using the same dimensions. So i would recommend to use those instead of the distortioned ones Smile

Edit2: Of course it is impossible to divide with 0, so if one of the varialbles is zero then d=Sqrt(a^2+b^2)+0,5=max(a,b)+0,5.

Edit3: For ensuring that distances are the same all around the clock the (b/a) part of the third component of 'd' must been absolutized. Typo.

Edit4: Updated the Excel file with a Range Ruler Designer feature. I am really done now. Good bye Smile

_________________
"I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?' - for he is willing to succumb."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4.


Last edited by SzieberthAdam on May 20, 2009 - 19:57; edited 6 times in total
shadow46x2



Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Post   Posted: May 18, 2009 - 19:55
FUMBBL Staff
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i can solve this problem really easily, instead of all this silly mathematics....

uvenlord wrote:
Grumbledook wrote:
there is a BBRC approved range chart somewhere

can use that then just have to worry about interceptions after
found this:
Image


problem solved

--j

_________________
origami wrote:
There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

ImageImage
SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: May 18, 2009 - 19:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Your wisdom is endless but i wanted to help Kalimar to programming this easily.

Cheers,
RS

_________________
"I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?' - for he is willing to succumb."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4.
Khudzlin



Joined: May 24, 2007

Post   Posted: May 18, 2009 - 20:21 Reply with quote Back to top

you can even do away with the square roots and compare distances squared (since distances are non-negative, the comparisons are the same)
PhrollikK



Joined: Nov 04, 2006

Post   Posted: May 18, 2009 - 20:28 Reply with quote Back to top

I just remembered that it is slightly dubious to discuss throwing ranges on the TT. I made a BB pitch a couple years back and when I measured the width and breadth of the board which I own it wasn't totally rectangular, but slightly trapezoidal. I had another board that I used as a reference and it too was slightly odd shaped :/

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Mega Punk!
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