FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Zhluhur

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Jun 20, 2009 - 09:57

I like this change, because I sometimes don't like to play my ogres. I then choose to play [R] instead of [B].

In the past, I also retired some 150TR skaven, because I just wanted to play another race in [B]. I'll use this option
do "deactivate" some of my disliked teams, not to only "activate" one team.

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Laura

Joined: Jul 15, 2008

Posted: Jun 20, 2009 - 10:06

I think the change is good.

If you only want to play with one team, but risk not playing at all it should be your choice..

CircularLogic

Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Posted: Jun 20, 2009 - 11:56

Laura wrote:

If you only want to play with one team, but risk not playing at all it should be your choice..

But you are not the only one affected. If you bring only one team, you decrease the matchup quality for every coach in the round and increase the chance of them not getting scheduled, too.

Snappy_Dresser

Joined: Feb 11, 2005

Posted: Jun 20, 2009 - 20:44

That is the heart of the matter Circ. Box isn't an open system (like Ranked, for example), so the actions of one coach much more strongly affect others. Most people don't want to hear anything about actual social responsibility though, so whatever.

They figure they voted for Obama, they can go back to doing whatever they please, right? Very Happy

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Chingis

Joined: Jul 09, 2007

Posted: Jun 20, 2009 - 21:28

I think the thing that has to be recognised is that many people may understand that matchups are going to be slightly less equal* but they don't care if that will enable them to have a choice of teams. If more people would prefer a choice of teams than a slightly more close matchup, then that's the way Blackbox should be structured. And for those who would prefer no choice of teams and a slightly more close matchup system for a given number of players, that's unfortunate.

* And let's not kid ourselves we're talking about a huge difference here: they'll be slightly less equal, on average, and with enough participants that would tend to "no difference at all."

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Jun 20, 2009 - 21:46

Snappy_Dresser wrote:

That is the heart of the matter Circ. Box isn't an open system (like Ranked, for example), so the actions of one coach much more strongly affect others. Most people don't want to hear anything about actual social responsibility though, so whatever.

They figure they voted for Obama, they can go back to doing whatever they please, right? Very Happy

Social responsibility?

No choice of which team we use is just not the system that many people want.

Why should we put our hard earned and limited leisure time to into playing a game that we don't want to play just to please someone else?

Should we all put a couple hours each day into playing Faction to keep that alive. Maybe we should force people to play Ladder too. There are sure to be a few people who still want to play that.

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed

Snappy_Dresser

Joined: Feb 11, 2005

Posted: Jun 20, 2009 - 22:11

koadah wrote:

Snappy_Dresser wrote:

That is the heart of the matter Circ. Box isn't an open system (like Ranked, for example), so the actions of one coach much more strongly affect others. Most people don't want to hear anything about actual social responsibility though, so whatever.

They figure they voted for Obama, they can go back to doing whatever they please, right? Very Happy

Social responsibility?

No choice of which team we use is just not the system that many people want.

Why should we put our hard earned and limited leisure time to into playing a game that we don't want to play just to please someone else?

Should we all put a couple hours each day into playing Faction to keep that alive. Maybe we should force people to play Ladder too. There are sure to be a few people who still want to play that.

Way to misconstrue the argument. You'll make a great NASCAR dad. But I'll admit (as I have before) it seems that Ranked Lite is what the masses want, so I will abide.

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<PurpleChest> the way it splooshed got me so excited

"I hear that shadow is a douchebag"
-Mr Foulscumm

Reisender

Joined: Sep 29, 2007

Posted: Jun 20, 2009 - 22:21

???

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Jun 20, 2009 - 22:29

Snappy_Dresser wrote:

koadah wrote:

Snappy_Dresser wrote:

That is the heart of the matter Circ. Box isn't an open system (like Ranked, for example), so the actions of one coach much more strongly affect others. Most people don't want to hear anything about actual social responsibility though, so whatever.

They figure they voted for Obama, they can go back to doing whatever they please, right? Very Happy

Social responsibility?

No choice of which team we use is just not the system that many people want.

Why should we put our hard earned and limited leisure time to into playing a game that we don't want to play just to please someone else?

Should we all put a couple hours each day into playing Faction to keep that alive. Maybe we should force people to play Ladder too. There are sure to be a few people who still want to play that.

Way to misconstrue the argument. You'll make a great NASCAR dad. But I'll admit (as I have before) it seems that Ranked Lite is what the masses want, so I will abide.

I have no idea what a NASCAR dad is. Is it like this guy?. Wink

I also don't know why choosing the team that you use makes it [R]anked Lite.

I understand why more teams makes for better match ups but I also think that more coaches makes for a stronger division in the long term.
I also think that people who like to activate several teams will still activate several teams.

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed

Rawlf

Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Posted: Jun 22, 2009 - 16:54

koadah wrote:

No choice of which team we use is just not the system that many people want.

Why should we put our hard earned and limited leisure time to into playing a game that we don't want to play just to please someone else?

This attitude corresponds with Ranked.

But everybody who plays in an organized League agrees on giving up certain freedoms of choice and following certain rules and restrictions, and quite some people like it a lot!

The question is: what is to be Blackbox' overarching theme? That isn't decided yet. If it's supposed to be like Ranked, the change is a good one. If the division is to be more like a League, where the challenge is given through the structure of the competition and not the coaches' own decision, the change is no help.

Timlagor

Joined: Feb 13, 2009

Posted: Jun 22, 2009 - 17:48

If it means fewer "not enough coaches" events, that's much more important to me than how many individual teams are in the draw. I don't mind playing uneven matches sometimes ..especially if the direction and degree of said unevenness is random.

I do like that I can get my vampire team off the ground (<TS100 is a pain) without retiring my dwarves.

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treborius

Joined: Apr 05, 2008

Posted: Jun 23, 2009 - 07:26

Rawlf wrote:

But everybody who plays in an organized League agrees on giving up certain freedoms of choice and following certain rules and restrictions, and quite some people like it a lot!

i think this is a very good example of the "certain freedoms of choice", that we still sacrifice in B for the return of what most B-coaches consider more fun (imho):

1. in L you control with what team you're playing, but not against which team(s) / coach(es) you're playing.
2. in B you NOW have exactly the same amount of "freedom of choice" with the addition that the pool of opponents is (luckily) a lot larger than any L (that i'm aware of).
3. before the Box-Activation-Change you had less "freedom of choice" than in L.
4. in R you have more "freedom of choice": which of your teams you're playing and also (given consent between coaches) against which coach / team you're playing.
5. ...thus, B is (now) much like L (with a large coach-base and additionally instant / unforseeable match-ups)
6. ...thus, B is just not like R (not even lite Wink

).

Rawlf

Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Posted: Jun 23, 2009 - 08:19

I disagree with your assessment, you underestimate the restrictions in L.

When you join a league, you choose one (!) team which you will use for a certain number of games in a row. You cannot chose to change your team during the season, nor can you retire them midway. Your only control over which team you use in L exist through creation and application, respectively retirement and leaving between seasons.
Even before the change, Blackbox gave you more freedoms of choice in that regard than League.

At this point, i don't think it is necessary to discuss if Blackbox is more like the one or the other. Potentially, Blackbox can become something unique and unlike both other divisions and actually add diversity to fumbbl. If and how that happens is up to the designer of course. I merely want to object that Ranked is the Box' role model, as so many coaches here seem to take for granted.

sk8bcn

Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Posted: Jun 23, 2009 - 10:00

However, I do think that R shares more with B than L.

When you join a league, you have a fixed number of opponents to play, that you basically play once a week or once every 2 weeks. You will seldom (nearly never) find a player playing only league games.

Ranked is a "default" division, like B. The fact I cannot choose my opponent makes no difference. I haven't commited myself to play at a fixed date, I don't end champion, 2nd or whatever.

Difference between R and B was: you cannot pick your opponent, you cannot pick the team you wish to play.

2nd part has been ditched. And it's too early to say if the effect is really negative or not.

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clarkin

Joined: Oct 15, 2007

Posted: Jun 23, 2009 - 11:09

sk8bcn wrote:

Difference between R and B was: you cannot pick your opponent, you cannot pick the team you wish to play.

2nd part has been ditched. And it's too early to say if the effect is really negative or not.

That's not true. You could easily pick the team you wanted to play before: by retiring the teams you were sick of. Or having just one team at a time.

I've retired 7 B teams that were in fine shape but I was just sick of getting scheduled with; I won't be doing this any more thanks to the selective activation. But don't think the 2nd part was true before.