Zy-Nox
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Jan 03, 2004 - 14:23 |
 
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LoL, I finaly get a game where i get a handicap roll, to my joy i got *palmed coin* lmao LOL |
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stark
Joined: Oct 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 03, 2004 - 14:33 |
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Surely the reason Fumbbl came up with the TS was it was a more accurate team rating system.
Therefore it is a more accurate measure of a teams strength, it should be used rather than the TR. Saying 'well the tabletop uses TR' doesn't really seem to justify a silly rule when there is a far better alternative.
StarK |
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doddkeith
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
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Jan 03, 2004 - 14:42 |
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Ok, so we have the arguements
1. Encourages the retirement of niggled players or suffer the consequences in the elevated Team TR vs ST ok I understand that.
2. Biggest problem I've seen so far in the arguements is players missing games are figured into your teams TR. This to me seems to be a problem in the playability of the game. Harder to find even matches as if you've taken a hit, and have some players not playing the next game. You must hang around fishing for a similar team in your straights or take the hit on Handicap rolls.
Any comments?
NB. I do like the handycap system think it's good it perhaps just needs a way of smoothing it out a bit to reduce rules raping, or being overpenalized in a match where your very likely down a couple of guys to begin with. |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 03, 2004 - 23:08 |
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| PurpleChest wrote: |
The only arguement i have heard against this is that this is the way the board game is. Well super, but there are already many differences between fumbbl and the board game |
Such as? In all rules matters, we follow the board game as much as the client allows, and that is getting closer to perfect all the time. |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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Such as the ST system.
I have never ever been asked to play a game because my tr was the same as the opponents, Some people look at this when challenging and avoid big gaps but most seem to go on STR rating and their personal feeling as to how close str is to reality (khemri +20, dwarf and cd +10, DE -10 for example) Now a system is implemented that uses the tr system and few seem to think it might be unbalanced.
Well if tr based games are such a good idea why was the str rating invented in the first place? |
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Malthor
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 04, 2004 - 01:43 |
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Handicaps are great. Has given my bloated high TR teams new life as I finally sacked those much loved players with 1-3 niggles that I kept around for way too long. If you are that concerned about handicaps, try to play within 25 TR (that is one handicap) and about 10 Str. |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 04, 2004 - 01:52 |
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| PurpleChest wrote: | Such as the ST system.
I have never ever been asked to play a game because my tr was the same as the opponents, Some people look at this when challenging and avoid big gaps but most seem to go on STR rating and their personal feeling as to how close str is to reality (khemri +20, dwarf and cd +10, DE -10 for example) Now a system is implemented that uses the tr system and few seem to think it might be unbalanced.
Well if tr based games are such a good idea why was the str rating invented in the first place? |
The ST system affects ranking only, it has nothing to do with the playing of the game and is therefore not a change to the rules by any means. As for why it was invented, there are two main reasons.
First, TR is a woefully inadequate measure of a teams ability to win. Before we used ST to calcuate ranking, there were a number of people who got high coach rankings by just always looking for the teams with the most bloated TR. Now that ranking is calculated based on a teams actual ability to win, this form of ranking manipulation is mostly eliminated and the rankings are much more meaningfull.
Second, it helps when picking games, especially before when there was no handicap. By having a figure that gives you a good estimate of a teams ability to win a game, you can better find teams to play against that will be good matches. |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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Well thats great. I get all that and in general think a handicap system is a good idea.
I think the fact that it will encourage retirements is a great idea to keep teams fresh etc etc
But any sytem that works out the handicap as if the entire squad was available to play rather than taking missing players into account can only make balanced games harder to find. Penalises anyone who doesnt fire ANY SI player and would seem to make newbie bashing easier not harder.
Anyway the point has been made and remade, far more eloquntly than by me so i will let it rest with a final thought.
Handicapping is a great idea, but the catch all excuse that 'thats the way the board game is' isn't good enough to gloss over a badly implemented system that penalises teams for having injured players. |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 04, 2004 - 03:03 |
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But the STR value is no longer accurate, because the handicap rules make teams with higher TR effetively weaker than those with lower TR, but the same previous ability to win otherwise.
Handicaps would work better if they just gave the lower team extra abilities or post match bonuses, not crippling teams already badly injured. |
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swilhelm73
Joined: Oct 06, 2003
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Jan 04, 2004 - 03:16 |
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Well, if you want to actually get the root problem addressed take the conversation over to TBB, its run by a (new) member of the BBRC, and I believe read regularly by some of the others...
http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10002
FUMBBL sticks as closely to the LRB as possible as Klipp and Christer have said, and as long as TR and Handicap are present as constituted now in the LRB they will be here too... |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 04, 2004 - 03:37 |
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| PurpleChest wrote: |
Handicapping is a great idea, but the catch all excuse that 'thats the way the board game is' isn't good enough to gloss over a badly implemented system that penalises teams for having injured players. |
The long and the short of it is that we are a strict LRB only league in so much as that is achievable in the client(outside of stunty leeg of course). Now that the LRB way of doing handicapping is available in the client, we will use it, just as we use all of the offical rules in the client.
There really isn't any chance of that changing, if you don't think the handicap table is good for the game, petition for it to be changed in the official rules. |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 04, 2004 - 03:38 |
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| Britnoth wrote: | But the STR value is no longer accurate, because the handicap rules make teams with higher TR effetively weaker than those with lower TR, but the same previous ability to win otherwise.
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Take a look at the post about the changes to the str system. The str value that is used for calculating ranking is modified by the number of handicaps that were given for the game. |
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whitey
Joined: Sep 19, 2003
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Jan 04, 2004 - 03:43 |
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If you'd fire a guy for 1,2 or even 3 handicap results for one game, because he has a mng, I feel sorry for your players. Just play the tough game, where the opponent gets a handicap or 2 and then your team will be fine when he returns. |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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So a team down on its luck is expected to play a game against the odds as their recovery match. Hmmm, I predict a lot more team retirements as a losing streak will get harder to break, and even high cas wins could make the next game either very hard to find or handicapped.
Who will accept Khemri games now? |
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RIPNE1
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 04, 2004 - 06:00 |
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| PurpleChest wrote: | So a team down on its luck is expected to play a game against the odds as their recovery match. Hmmm, I predict a lot more team retirements as a losing streak will get harder to break, and even high cas wins could make the next game either very hard to find or handicapped.
Who will accept Khemri games now? |
The game was never designed to be played in such an open league... Teams are meant to have tough games after suffering injuries. I for one am glad that the introduction of the handicap table means a team can no longer avoid the consequences of suffering injuries! |
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