James_Probert
Joined: Nov 25, 2007
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 Posted:
Mar 17, 2010 - 08:18 |
 
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| BiggieB wrote: | Ive recently had some indications that the new clients RNG will sample from a truly random source. That should put an end to any further rng debats  |
There'll always be RNG debates. 
No matter how good the RNG is. |
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Kalimar
Joined: Sep 22, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 17, 2010 - 10:23 |
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The problem with Randomn Number Generators is, that no matter how randomn the number sequence generated is (the MersenneTwister used in the old client is plenty randomn enough for our purposes) the sequence can be predicted once you know the seed used. If one would reseed the generator from a truly randomn source (such as the mouse movement over all clients currently playing) it is impossible to predict the next number. And this is what we'll do. True randomness once and for all |
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Flix
Joined: Oct 26, 2003
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Mar 17, 2010 - 10:31 |
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will the dice generated at the server and every dice will sent seperate to the client that noone is able to check the RAM for the dice |
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BiggieB
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
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Mar 17, 2010 - 10:47 |
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| Flix wrote: | | will the dice generated at the server and every dice will sent seperate to the client that noone is able to check the RAM for the dice |
you have no idea how hard it will be to crack this. The dice generator is nigh on impossible to crack, and even if it gets cracked the nature of it is such that it will recover.
The encryption and the nature of this generator is cutting edge. As a matter of fact its better encrypted then what the U.S Goverment uses (Or used to use untill they migrate to something new)
So if you manage to crack this beauty.
well you deserve it |
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Were_M_Eye
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
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| Posted:
Mar 17, 2010 - 10:51 |
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| BiggieB wrote: | | Ive recently had some indications that the new clients RNG will sample from a truly random source. That should put an end to any further rng debats |
Nothing is random, it's just in a pattern to great for us to understand |
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Kalimar
Joined: Sep 22, 2006
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Mar 17, 2010 - 10:54 |
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@Flix: yep, dice rolls are done at the server and the results transferred to the clients for reporting in the log. No rolling beforehand, no dice synchronization or the like. Plus a changing seed (as I've mentioned above) plus an encrypted number generator. Personally I probably wouldn't have gone to such lengths, but it's a pet project of Christer, actually |
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BiggieB
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 17, 2010 - 10:56 |
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| Were_M_Eye wrote: | | BiggieB wrote: | | Ive recently had some indications that the new clients RNG will sample from a truly random source. That should put an end to any further rng debats |
Nothing is random, it's just in a pattern to great for us to understand |
on the contrary. Randomness exist and is furthermore well defined. I suggest you look it up |
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Flix
Joined: Oct 26, 2003
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Mar 17, 2010 - 11:12 |
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Christers choice for such, is very good, the DiceGenerator is the technical hearth of the Client.
I cant wait that it will runs on Fumbbl and i am sure that client will give fumbbl a big boost. |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 17, 2010 - 11:41 |
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| BiggieB wrote: | | Were_M_Eye wrote: | | BiggieB wrote: | | Ive recently had some indications that the new clients RNG will sample from a truly random source. That should put an end to any further rng debats |
Nothing is random, it's just in a pattern to great for us to understand |
on the contrary. Randomness exist and is furthermore well defined. I suggest you look it up |
Were_M_eye gave a philosophical statement which in fact is quite a nice one. I did what you suggested and "looked it up". What I found indicated that there are a variety of views on the subject. On thing to be aware of is that there is a big difference between "randomness" and "unpredictability".
I would present my personal philosophy as thus: Nothing is truly random, it's just in a pattern that is impossible for us to quantify, even with perfect knowledge of the laws of the universe. |
_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
Oscar Wilde |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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For the more technically minded people, the RNG we're talking about is called Fortuna, and was designed by Bruce Schneier. Very briefly it's an AES-256 crypto running in counter mode (meaning it encrypts blocks that endlessly count up). The key for the crypto is generated by combining two or more "entropy pools", which output SHA-256 hashes of data from true entropy sources. The entropy sources used for my implementation are mouse movements from the clients playing, and also a network latency measurement. Rekeying happens for approximately every 1000 bytes of entropy gathered.
The output of the crypto is used to generate dice rolls, each 128 bit block generating up to 16 dice rolls. To keep the system as high quality as possible and to improve security, the rekeying should happen once per million bits, which ends up requiring more or less one byte of entropy for every 100 dice rolls. This should be more than enough for any game played using the client |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 17, 2010 - 12:05 |
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Will there be an admin mode available? |
_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
Oscar Wilde |
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cmelchior
Joined: Apr 11, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 17, 2010 - 12:12 |
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I thought that FFB wasn't going to be hosted on Fumbbl due to possible legal reprocautions from GW? But since you talk about server generated dice rolls, I assume that has changed?
Not that secure fair dice rolls are not possible in a p2p-architecture, it would just cause a lot of overhead. |
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BiggieB
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
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Mar 17, 2010 - 12:14 |
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| Grod wrote: | | BiggieB wrote: | | Were_M_Eye wrote: | | BiggieB wrote: | | Ive recently had some indications that the new clients RNG will sample from a truly random source. That should put an end to any further rng debats |
Nothing is random, it's just in a pattern to great for us to understand |
on the contrary. Randomness exist and is furthermore well defined. I suggest you look it up |
Were_M_eye gave a philosophical statement which in fact is quite a nice one. I did what you suggested and "looked it up". What I found indicated that there are a variety of views on the subject. On thing to be aware of is that there is a big difference between "randomness" and "unpredictability".
I would present my personal philosophy as thus: Nothing is truly random, it's just in a pattern that is impossible for us to quantify, even with perfect knowledge of the laws of the universe. |
hey grod I am up for this debate, but not in this thread, lets keep it on topic and for the glory of kalimar! |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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While it's true that Kalimar's FFB client has a server/client architecture, the two parts will be hosted by a separate legal entity. It doesn't matter if the server part of Kalimar's project is hosted on FUMBBL or not.
FUMBBL will accept results using the format that FFB uses, and FFB supports the format FUMBBL uses to serve teams and whatever other information is needed to make it work.
As previously stated, the game will be hosted on playffb.net, which is also where the server part of the system will run. When a match is completed, playffb.net will simply send information back to fumbbl.com.
I am not responsible for the playffb.net domain. Besides, we're playing fantasy football. |
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Kalimar
Joined: Sep 22, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 18, 2010 - 13:28 |
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