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Force



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 11:54 Reply with quote Back to top

There has been a discussion going on on talkbloodbowl.com and on bloodbowl.com.

The question raised was weather or not online play (Java Blood Bowl & Play By Email Blood Bowl) should be allowed/relevant for the process of developing rules and balancing the game.

In my oppinion, gathering data is what computers do best.
There is also the absolute fact that everyone playing online uses the same rules (in their system of course) while tabletop gamers often play wrong rules interpretations by mistake. There are also minor house rules in almost every offline league, and the bookeeping of data is way more erratic than it is here on fumbbl for example.

However there is this small file "Differences from the board game" that concerns me.

I want to give a couple of examples. In online play you will never be called for "illigal procedure". On the other hand, i don not think that this rule is meant to be enforced though. In my oppinion, this rule is there as a tool of speeding up the learning process of moving the turn marker, not to decide tournaments.

Players auto roll over form beeing stunned in Java Blood Bowl. This is as well a rule that, if enforced, may decide games but should not be in my oppinion. Java Bowl makes you error free, but balance and rules should not be based on laps-errors.

Big Guys may not use Leader Rerolls. This totally unbalances the Leader skill compared to the offline game.

You may not go-for-it to leap. This may have prevented a couple of thousand of touchdowns from beeing scored.

Diving Tackle is announced before the roll. A rule that actually should be the official way diving tackle is played.

Whats my intent?
I think, it would be a good thing to continue to make Java Blood Bowl as close a simulation of the Board Game as possible. (Thats what is beeing done already). Heres the controversial piece:

The Board game should be adjusted to fit the PC game in some aspects.
This statement will cause some uproar i think.
To give 2 examples: Coaches should be allowed to turn stunned players face up during their opponents turn if they had forgot to do so and a turnover just happened, and diving tackle should be canged to work the way it does in Java Bolw. Also the illegal procedure rule should be removed. Disallowing Big Guys any kind of reroll would also make things easier (pro a trait? come on...)

In my oppinion Blood Bowl should be trimmed to a work exactly the same way on and offline. In the future, for example, the internet could be used to play a qualifiying tournament for the "Blood Bowl Championship" in England, which is then played on the Board.

In the future, there should be no difference between online and offline play in terms of balance and rules. Coaching skill is a different matter since the board game is of course more diffcult to play since it lacks the interface gimmicks the computer programms provide.
peikko



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 13:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Force wrote:

The Board game should be adjusted to fit the PC game in some aspects.


Right. And while we are it can we take this to bigger scale. Ive always eben little bugged cause driving simulators aint perfect. Cant we make Ford for example make real cars ebhave more like the ones in simulators? And hey, Im pretty much fan of those thrird persons shooters too, btu its friggin shame that if if I do go shooting some (ahem) people for real I dont get just fame and glory, could we twist those laws just a little bit?

JavaBB is based on tabletop game and it is trying to do best it can. It has never been and never should be other way around. Why should we impelement limitations of non-profit computer program to the real thing? That is prolly the most absurd thing Ive heard in some time. Your reasons for that are way off as long as the client is made by Games Workshop.


Last edited by peikko on Jan 28, 2004 - 13:13; edited 1 time in total
BunnyPuncher



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 13:11 Reply with quote Back to top

We await your superior JBB client with high expectations.

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Mr-Klipp



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 13:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Never forget, GW is a miniatures company, and thus while they might tolerate the existance of a free online bloodbowl client, they sure as hell aren't going to embrace it

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Jugular



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 13:52 Reply with quote Back to top

The differences you mentioned are negligable the gfi problem may well have lost a thousand TD's but maybe the ability to know exactly where to stand with pass block may have reduced the number of TD's by a thousand. I might agree with you on Diving Tackle but dropping illegal procedure and adding auto turn over is neither worth it nor likely.
Referring to your thread title I believe that online play data should be considered as useful and relevant as offline data bearing in mind LRB rules only leagues are considered. I haven't read the TBB thread but if the only argument against is the changes from boardgame file then I see it a pretty much a non argument. Game balance and Race balance are not significantly effected by the differences.
Guest





Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 14:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Have you actually followed the discussion on talkbloodbowl.com and bloodbowl.com?

in a verry short summary some hardcore tabletop dude claimed that JBB/PBEBB are completely irrelevant for rules/balancing changes because they are a diffrent game.

My topic is specifically aimed at JBB and the (few) differences there actually are to the boardgame.
In my oppinion, tabletop games are nearly completely irrelevant for things like balancing canges because the level of coaching skill is way higher online, and if there is something like a skill to abuse, the online gamers will find out about first. This is because of the sheer amount of games played and the fast way to spread such knowledge.

The part of my posting regarding changes to the boart is hypothetical. But i am convinced that bloodbowl will become an official online game at some time in the future. In 20 years from know the minis in all games will be animated holograms, so what.

Its the suggestion that "java blood bowl is not real bloodbowl" that totally bugs me.
On the contrary, in my oppinion as shown on 3 of the examples, JBB is actually superior in terms of (superflous) rules like "illegal procedure".

But please before you make any comments look up the topics in the other forums.
Mr-Klipp



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 15:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Anonymous wrote:
But i am convinced that bloodbowl will become an official online game at some time in the future.


Never happen. Go read GW's stock reports if you don't believe me. They are almost fanatical about not allowing a new product to canibalize the market of an existing product.

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Guest





Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 15:26 Reply with quote Back to top

they have recently released Warhammer 40k "Firewarrior" and are working on Warhammer Online. I think everybody in the toy industry is positioning themsevels for the electronic market in some way. Well LEGO failed;
peikko



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 15:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Anonymous aka Force wrote:
level of coaching skill is way higher online.


So true, if you play in kindergarden BB club.
Thou you might also be, well someone else could be, the ones who play at NAF tournaments and so on where its pretty hard to find newbies who do not know basic rules and you cant go cherry picking your victims.

Anonymous aka Force wrote:
lIts the suggestion that "java blood bowl is not real bloodbowl" that totally bugs me.
On the contrary, in my oppinion as shown on 3 of the examples, JBB is actually superior in terms of (superflous) rules like "illegal procedure".


So true again, that flight simulator is way superior to real thing cause you cannot crash in it.
On other hand that flight simulator is simulator and tries to simulate flying, As does JBB try to simulate playing in tabletop.
peikko



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 15:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Anonymous wrote:
they have recently released Warhammer 40k "Firewarrior" and are working on Warhammer Online.


These mentioned games are NOT online versions of boardgame but games using mythology and world of these games. Firewarrior is first person shooter and WH Online is MMORPG.
Mr-Klipp



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 15:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Exactly as peiko said. In both of these cases, they are expanding into a new market using their existing IP, while at the same time, not competing with the existing market for the product. This is why you have not seen, and never will see, an online computer game direct translation of any of their games.

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Guest





Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 15:47 Reply with quote Back to top

There alread has been a official Games Workshop Blood Bowl PC game, and a couple of Warhammer 40k strategy games.
From my email contact with Andy Hall he told me that they will not "rush" into this new market, but certainly are discussing various Ideas.

That means they do not have many "Shots", if for example they release another Blood Bowl PC game that "sucks" they will have slammed their own door. So while i don't think GW will become a major PC Game company in the near future, they certainly try to prepare for the future.
Mr-Klipp



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 16:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Anonymous wrote:
There alread has been a official Games Workshop Blood Bowl PC game, and a couple of Warhammer 40k strategy games.


And yet you are still either ignoring, or not understanding the point. Neither of those games you mentioned are online translations of the actual games. They are BASED on them, however they are quite different, and as such, they are not seen as a risk to the primary market.

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Guest





Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 16:12 Reply with quote Back to top

You are assuming that PC/Online Games would hurt Tabletop/Board games. In my oppinion that assumption is wrong. There are people who like PC Games and Hardware that can run cool graphics, and there are people who love Miniatures and are passionate about painting them. Those are 2 totally diffrent worlds in my oppinion.

Producing an online version of an succesful tabletop game would more likely boost ofline sales. But there is the danger that a flawed PC game that is a low quality rip off damages the brand. So my feeling is they want to come out with something really good or nothing at all, and thats also what Andy Halls email suggested.

However since neither of us works in GW's management, we will have to wait and see.
Mr-Klipp



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 28, 2004 - 16:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Anonymous wrote:
You are assuming that PC/Online Games would hurt Tabletop/Board games.


I'm not assuming it, I'm practically quoting from their investor stock reports.

Anonymous wrote:

However since neither of us works in GW's management, we will have to wait and see.

No, I have read the reports from GW's management saying exactly what I am telling you, so waiting and seeing what they think really doesn't enter into it.

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