Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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 Posted:
Jun 16, 2010 - 15:37 |
 
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First of all it is spelt type not tipe 
But you are correct - Claw can be more effective than MB against some opponents e.g. Orc, Dwarvf, CD, Chaos but MB still has it's place too. Most people will be giving a player Claw with every intention of giving them MB for their next skill because it is a really nasty combo. I think giving some players MB first and other Claw first makes sense.
However I think the main reason we are seeing so much of it is that Chaos can now get Claw for free, no longer needing doubles means we can all create teams of super mutants which I’m sure everyone will try to do. Mutations are cool and I'm sure we have all thought about getting a player with all of the mutations, but once everyone calms down and LRB5 goes live then I'm sure we will see most coaches going for - Block, MB then Claw. |
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Rijssiej
Joined: Jan 04, 2005
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Jun 16, 2010 - 16:32 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | Rijssiej wrote: | | JanMattys wrote: | Who doesn't valute stuns highly????
There's not only cas. Stuns win games. |
Stuns rarely win games compared to KOs and cas. |
So if someone would offer you to exchange all MB for LRB4 claw, you would decline? |
That isn't a fair question as claw is harder to get than MB.
But when my opponent has a claw player and a MB player and I have a choice which to try and take out I would go for the MB one when I don't play with an AV9 team. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jun 16, 2010 - 16:55 |
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Assuming mighty blow and "LRB4 claw" were both normal skills and RSC didnt exist...
I would want mighty blow. Stuns are useful but I'd rather have a moderate increase in cas/KO than a moderate increase in stuns. Especially on my heavy hitter - the guy who's blitzing juicy targets to try and make them pop. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Jun 16, 2010 - 17:13 |
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| SillySod wrote: | Assuming mighty blow and "LRB4 claw" were both normal skills and RSC didnt exist...
I would want mighty blow. Stuns are useful but I'd rather have a moderate increase in cas/KO than a moderate increase in stuns. Especially on my heavy hitter - the guy who's blitzing juicy targets to try and make them pop. |
CAS Probability
KO+ Probability
If you're looking for KO+, Claw is better than MB against armor 8+, and is marginally inferior for Av7 only.
If you're looking for casualties (apparently, KOing people is not efficient enough to win games?), Claw is very marginally worse for Av8, and better for Av9.
I'd prefer Claw any day of the week, assuming a mixed range of opponents (i.e. Blackbox-style gaming) |
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LoxleyAndy
Joined: Sep 11, 2006
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Jun 16, 2010 - 17:40 |
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Very helpful tables... much simpler, but here is the LRB5/6 equivalent.
CAS Probability
AV Normal MB Claw Claw + MB
10 1.4% 3.7% 6.9% 14.4%
9 2.8% 6.5% 6.9% 14.4%
8 4.6% 10.0% 6.9% 14.4%
7 6.9% 14.4% 6.9% 14.4%
6 9.7% 18.5% 9.7% 18.5%
KO+ Probability
AV Normal MB Claw Claw + MB
10 3.5% 8.3% 17.4% 31.3%
9 6.9% 14.4% 17.4% 31.3%
8 11.6% 22.0% 17.4% 31.3%
7 17.4% 31.3% 17.4% 31.3%
6 24.3% 39.8% 24.3% 39.8%
Nothing surprising here really. |
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Timlagor
Joined: Feb 13, 2009
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Jun 16, 2010 - 18:43 |
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So presumably those MB advocates would rather have RSC? 
I definitely want to break the armour myself but if I was going to analyse it i'd want to allocate points: stun 1, KO 3, CAS 5 perhaps and use these to weight the probabilities (feel free to produce a table for me ..I certainly won't be bothering ).
I'm not terribly intertested in AV 6- or 10+ as the former go off easily anyway and the latter need fouling (or laughing at from a safe distance) ..though with +AV becoming easy in LRB5 that might change. I think I'd still go for claw first as most of the oppositions I'm scared of are higher AV: you get tackle and such to deal with elves. |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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Jun 17, 2010 - 15:57 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: |
So if someone would offer you to exchange all MB for LRB4 claw, you would decline? |
Hey I just said that LRB4 Mighty Blow and Claw had similar strength, NOT that LRB 4 Mighty Blow is better than Claw. I believe the statistics back me up on this. I really don't agree with your claim Circ, that Claw is vastly superior in LRB 4.
And the point I was making, is that people are carrying on with the mistaken belief that Claw is so much better than Mighty Blow into LRB 5/6, where it is obviously heavily watered down (unless combined with Mighty Blow). |
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maysrill
Joined: Dec 29, 2008
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Jun 17, 2010 - 16:08 |
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| Grod wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: |
So if someone would offer you to exchange all MB for LRB4 claw, you would decline? |
Hey I just said that LRB4 Mighty Blow and Claw had similar strength, NOT that LRB 4 Mighty Blow is better than Claw. I believe the statistics back me up on this. I really don't agree with your claim Circ, that Claw is vastly superior in LRB 4.
And the point I was making, is that people are carrying on with the mistaken belief that Claw is so much better than Mighty Blow into LRB 5/6, where it is obviously heavily watered down (unless combined with Mighty Blow). |
In LRB4, Claw and MB are fairly even. People take Claw over MB because it required a doubles roll, and with another doubles you could pair it with RSC. Neither MB/Claw nor MB/RSC are anywhere near as good as Claw/RSC, so starting with the Claw is a long-term hope for major carnage.
LRB6 Claw is inferior to MB at most av ranges, but combos quite well with MB. That should lead more people to take MB first. The exception would be the races that can take mutations on doubles, the major candidates being skaven blitzers and CDs, who can later take MB on a normal roll. For linerats, MB would probably be a better doubles roll than Claw. |
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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Jun 17, 2010 - 16:36 |
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and therefore, linerats should leave the mb to the vermins and get horns, two heads or some other fun stuff in lrb5 (just as a sidenote) |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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Jun 17, 2010 - 16:45 |
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| Lakrillo wrote: | I am looking forward to the public play of this client, so many n00bs to pwn that run around with only claws and dp on their teams.  |
the smart lrb4 "n00bs" that run around with only claw/dp on their teams...
will be running around with dp/sg & mb/po
--j |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jan 13, 2011 - 10:15 |
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Could some one work out the odds for this including just PO, MB+PO and Claw+MB+PO Im not great at maths.
I think the KO+ section would be 58% for - MB + Claw + PO for players av7 or higher but i'm not confident of that, and don't want to continue because I think I'm going down the wrong path lol. So if there are any people that are good at maths, please help 
Edit: Also a column for stunty players would be nice too.
CAS Probability
AV Normal MB Claw Claw + MB
10 1.4% 3.7% 6.9% 14.4%
9 2.8% 6.5% 6.9% 14.4%
8 4.6% 10.0% 6.9% 14.4%
7 6.9% 14.4% 6.9% 14.4%
6 9.7% 18.5% 9.7% 18.5%
KO+ Probability
AV Normal MB Claw Claw + MB
10 3.5% 8.3% 17.4% 31.3%
9 6.9% 14.4% 17.4% 31.3%
8 11.6% 22.0% 17.4% 31.3%
7 17.4% 31.3% 17.4% 31.3%
6 24.3% 39.8% 24.3% 39.8% |
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uzkulak
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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Jan 13, 2011 - 11:46 |
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Even on chaos teams more than about 3-4 claws seems excessive. It is as others have said, now best considered as a situational skill - good only for removing players with av9+. That is because players with av9 rely on their av to remain on the pitch in the same way players with av7 rely on dodge. Claw is IMO a direct equivalent to tackle.
Personally I think Jump up + Piling on is the most dangerous combination you can get in lrb6 and that we will increasingly start seeing teams go down that route as the number of games picks up and people get more used to the new client and the rules that go with it. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jan 13, 2011 - 12:54 |
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Well that is an interesting point but it doesnt really answer this. Come on guys there are some proper maths experts on here. Who can solve this first
| Garion wrote: | Could some one work out the odds for this including just PO, MB+PO and Claw+MB+PO Im not great at maths.
I think the KO+ section would be 58% for - MB + Claw + PO for players av7 or higher but i'm not confident of that, and don't want to continue because I think I'm going down the wrong path lol. So if there are any people that are good at maths, please help
Edit: Also a column for stunty players would be nice too.
CAS Probability
AV Normal MB Claw Claw + MB
10 1.4% 3.7% 6.9% 14.4%
9 2.8% 6.5% 6.9% 14.4%
8 4.6% 10.0% 6.9% 14.4%
7 6.9% 14.4% 6.9% 14.4%
6 9.7% 18.5% 9.7% 18.5%
KO+ Probability
AV Normal MB Claw Claw + MB
10 3.5% 8.3% 17.4% 31.3%
9 6.9% 14.4% 17.4% 31.3%
8 11.6% 22.0% 17.4% 31.3%
7 17.4% 31.3% 17.4% 31.3%
6 24.3% 39.8% 24.3% 39.8% |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Jan 13, 2011 - 13:22 |
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I made these tables a while back for another thread. I didn't deem necessary to add any "Claw" column as any observative reader will just look at the av7 row to know the effect of claw.
Break armor
KO+
Cas
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 13:27 |
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thanks |
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