Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
|
 Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 13:33 |
 
|
All the odds are on DS's site: http://slobb.doubleskulls.net/injury.php
That being said going Claw before block is almost always suboptimal. If your opponent has block, then taking block obviously has no effect & you should really be taking Piling on.
There's a very good old and undervalued thread by martin about killing in Cyanide's site as well:
http://www.cyanide-studio.com/forumBB/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22557&p=334639&hilit=MiOn#p334639
He has a great quick summary about it as well:
So, in summary, the statistically most effective development for killing would be:
Blockless player => PiOn => Mighty => (Block) => Claw => Frenzy
Block Player => PiOn => Mighty => Claw => Frenzy
*
In practice you always take MB before PO, because you always get to use MB and the difference between them is not that great. But the coaches picking Claw should really be picking Block or Piling on and only after that think about it.
*
There are some bits about martin's tables that didnt make sense to me, like comparing the value of Claw vs Block as 3rd skill it seemed to me that frenzy was also stronger than Claw as skill #3.. |
|
|
Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
|
| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 13:37 |
|
Maysrill certainly makes a good point, but there's enough bloodthirsty coaches out there that go into a game with the mindset 'KILL=WIN' regardless of the final score. They will pack their teams with claw/MB/PO as quickly as they can! Of course there's no escape from the killfreaks in the box (where the big boys play), but they will suffer somewhat for their blood soaked outlook in Ranked (unless Manbush is about, he plays anyone!)
Thankfully I don't know of any coach with that kind of outlook...do you?  |
_________________
 |
|
Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
|
| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 13:44 |
|
| zakatan wrote: | I made these tables a while back for another thread. I didn't deem necessary to add any "Claw" column as any observative reader will just look at the av7 row to know the effect of claw.
Break armor
KO+
Cas
 |
There seems to be an error in your calculations on the Cas+ column for Piling on/MB & Piling on when crossreferenced with the KO+ column.
Basicly there's four ways of using PO, and your calcs show the best of both worlds.
The noob way (not using it)
The very conservative way (using on stuns)
The less conservative way (using on stuns & AV)
The very killy way (using on stuns, AV & KOs)
Your calcs seem to combine ways 3 & 4 in that you calc the best possible odds for breaking armor, best possible odds for causing KO+ and best possible odds for causing CAS. In reality, if you reroll KOs to get more CAS your odds of KO+ decrease by about the same as the odds increase in CAS+.
Slobb.doubleskulls' PO -AV will give you the real figures using piling on AV, but basicly while maximising KO+, the CAS-odds are slightly worse at about:
MB/PO
6: 31,76%
7: 26,77% - 5% difference!!
8: 20,45%
9: 14,17%
10: 8,56% |
|
|
zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 13:52 |
|
i calculated the killingest way. Why have a ko if you can RR for a cas! |
_________________
 |
|
Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
|
| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 14:01 |
|
| zakatan wrote: | | i calculated the killingest way. Why have a ko if you can RR for a cas! |
Then you should make reductions on the KO+ column to make it coherent! |
|
|
zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 14:02 |
|
| Carnis wrote: | | zakatan wrote: | | i calculated the killingest way. Why have a ko if you can RR for a cas! |
Then you should make reductions on the KO+ column to make it coherent! |
that's why they are separate tables |
|
|
JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
|
| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 14:04 |
|
It is a coherent table. Just a bit lacking on cas info if you are looking for a ko. |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
|
soranos
Joined: May 14, 2009
|
| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 14:43 |
|
| shadow46x2 wrote: | | Lakrillo wrote: | I am looking forward to the public play of this client, so many n00bs to pwn that run around with only claws and dp on their teams.  |
the smart lrb4 "n00bs" that run around with only claw/dp on their teams...
will be running around with dp/sg & mb/po
--j |
I have to disagree. I see SG is a near-pointless skill on non-stunty teams. Your aim when fouling is at least to break armor and for important fouls you will want to bring the AV down to at least 3 or 4 anyway, which further reduces the worth of SG and moves it in the territory of borderline team-bloat... |
|
|
Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
|
| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 14:54 |
|
| zakatan wrote: |
Break armor
KO+
Cas
|
How would these percentages change against a Stunty player? |
_________________
 |
|
Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
|
| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 16:20 |
|
| Garion wrote: |
How would these percentages change against a Stunty player? |
From DS site above linked:
Stunty, Piling On-Av, Mighty Blow
| Code: | Av Penetrate Stun KO Cas Score
7 82.64% 13.82% 30.91% 37.91% .534
6 92.28% 13.02% 34.92% 44.35% .618
5 97.22% 11.62% 37.25% 48.35% .670 |
|
|
|
Juff
Joined: May 24, 2006
|
| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 17:04 |
|
| soranos wrote: | | shadow46x2 wrote: | | Lakrillo wrote: | | I am looking forward to the public play of this client, so many n00bs to pwn that run around with only claws and dp on their teams. |
the smart lrb4 "n00bs" that run around with only claw/dp on their teams...
will be running around with dp/sg & mb/po
--j |
I have to disagree. I see SG is a near-pointless skill on non-stunty teams. Your aim when fouling is at least to break armor and for important fouls you will want to bring the AV down to at least 3 or 4 anyway, which further reduces the worth of SG and moves it in the territory of borderline team-bloat... |
If your SG is making a gangfoul, you're doing it wrong and SG is useless.
SG is for the opportunistic cheap shots! |
|
|
On1
Joined: Jul 12, 2004
|
| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 17:07 |
|
You can also just foul with SG to get your opponent to foul back and be ejected!
It works every time! |
|
|
Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
|
| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 17:45 |
|
Sneaky git is not useless at all. I would never take it on a double but if im playign with elves i will be sure to take a DP sneaky git. If you get enough Tz's on an opponent so that you require a 7 or more to break their armour then you are twice as likely to injure them than you are to getting sent off because DP is optional so if you roll a double 3 then you opt not to use DP and your player will stay on the pitch if you not and you manage to injure them - then happy days.
Also On1 is right about fouling can get your opponent to start fouling and get the self sent off which is funny.
Here is the proof -
ejection prob
damage prob
eject vs damage
Anyway this thread is about Claw not sneaky git |
_________________
|
|
Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
|
| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 17:49 |
|
I think it's all about the middle ground, really. Is claw worth having on your team? Absolutely! Is claw a skill to give every player? Absolutely not! |
_________________
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
|
Malmir
Joined: May 20, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jan 13, 2011 - 17:54 |
|
Over time it will doubtless become clear what the best order and combinations are: people who haev already played lots of playtest games may already know. However for someone like me who has only played two, I have ideas and am hoping to find that optimum spread of skills that no-one else has thought of. Obviously this is unlikely (a bit like the opening day of the season where everyone secretly hopes their team could win the league)but it's damn exciting! Hell it's exciting enough that I plan to make five or six box teams on Saturday. |
|
|
|
|
Elf Draft Coach
Search
