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Uomotigre3



Joined: Sep 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2010 - 23:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Actually what I am going to talk about is not properly a bug, is just rules interpretation.
I have seen FFB client mangaes HG and BL in the opposite I though it did. That means client carries out HP before BL but I thought HP should have carried out after BL such as pass, foul or whatever. I think rules are not really clear but my interpretation is BL then HG.
What do you think about it?
uuni



Joined: Mar 12, 2010

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2010 - 23:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Their order is undefined, both are resolved "at the end of the Action". The question might have some things common with the question, which do you roll first, a GFI or a Dodge. Also you can stir the soup by thinking what happens when vampire with the ball is held by Tentacles.

Does somebody remember whether this has already been clarified by BBRC or similar? I remember always playing Hypno first, BL resolve then.
Uomotigre3



Joined: Sep 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2010 - 23:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Actually BL rule doesn't say exactly "at the end of the action" but:

"After carrying out the action, or after the movement part of a compound action (i.e. before a throw or hand-off, and before scoring a touchdown if
appropriate)"

here my doubt comes from...
uuni



Joined: Mar 12, 2010

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2010 - 00:03 Reply with quote Back to top

LRB6, Blood Lust:
Quote:
Either way, at the end of the declared Action, but before actually passing, handing off, or scoring, the vampire must feed.


LRB6, Hypnotic Gaze:
Quote:
The player may use hypnotic gaze at the end of his Move Action on one opposing player who is in an adjacent square.
Uomotigre3



Joined: Sep 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2010 - 07:58 Reply with quote Back to top

that's what I said, on HG rule there is a "but" after "at the end..."
gandresch



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2010 - 08:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi,

I asked the question on tffb and the first answer (and some, that are a several years old) tells, that:
- HG works at the end of your move action
- BL allows you to convert your action (when taking a Block action) into a Move action.
- HG can only be used at the end of a Move action

So, at first the move of a player ends and therefor he can use HG in this situation. After using HG, his Move action is over and his whole action ends, which comes along with BL.

So you can gaze a player and then cause a turnover because of not biting a thrall - sounds strange, seems possible.

Greets,
gan
Lakrillo



Joined: Sep 12, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2010 - 11:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Gandresh, that sound like a LRB5 ruling, where if you failed a BL roll took a move-action instead where you could gaze and then fail to bite.

I would say bite first, gaze after. As that could be comparable with the pass or handoff on those actions.
Kalimar



Joined: Sep 22, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2010 - 11:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Lakrillo: with block it is the other way round (block first, bite later).
f_alk



Joined: Sep 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2010 - 11:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Requoting the rules:
Quote:
Either way, at the end of the declared Action, but before actually passing, handing off or scoring, the Vampire must feed. ... Once the Vampire has bitten a Thrall he may complete his Action.


The rule only mentions Actions that include ballhandling. I would guess the reason for this is that - as a Vampire who does not feed is sent off - securing/transfering the ball is made impossible unless you feed.
All other actions that do not include the ball - Blitzing, Fouling, Hypno Gaze or even Blocking (Without moving) - are carried out as normal and if you can feed afterwards, you stay on the pitch. If you can't then after the block or fouling part you get sent off and suffer a turnover.

I am aware that you could read the rules in another fashion:
The rules just accidentally forgot to mention fouling and the blocking part of blocking. Then you should follow a sequence like:
- moving part of action
- bloodlust/feeding/being sent off
- other parts of action (handover, pass, block, foul, hypno gaze).

The problem with the second interpretation is:
You can take your block during any part of the Blitz. Foul, Pass, Handover all happen at the very end of the action, where as the block part of the Blitz is flexible to use. So, the block part of the Blitz does not happen at the end of the action. Also, as the Block Action does not involve a moving part, it is rather undefined by the rules in its sequence and the above 2nd interpretation is quite a guess.

So, for these reason I favor the first interpretation - and the way the client seems to handle it at the moment.
uuni



Joined: Mar 12, 2010

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2010 - 12:19 Reply with quote Back to top

According to a couple of discussions in TFFB.org, the list of things in Blood Lust is exhaustive. Only the listed things must be made after Blood Lust. Therefore the active coach can decide the order of "at the end of the Action" steps for resolving in other cases. Most of the time it is the active coaches advantage to choose to Hypnotic Gaze before resolving Blood Lusts potential bite or eject.

This seems consistent with f_alks first interpretation.
gandresch



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2010 - 12:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi,

that you have to bite after the block or move action (or after a foul) is more than meaningful. It allows you to make a block and afterwards bite e.g. a Thrall, that is in your tacklezone after the block but not before. It wouldn't make sense to bite a Thrall before your Move or Foul actions.
The important thing in biting before any ball handling is, that you would be able to pass or hand off the ball to another player, who is standing in the endzone and because of BL should not be allowed to score. That is the reason, why you must bite before such a pass/HO/TD. And it is meant exactly that way, as you can read on tffb.
And this is the reason, why - excluding all logic, which should be clear to everyone, who took a closer look to the interception rules - the bite finishes the action of the Vampire and everything else is before this.

Greets,
gan
Grumbledook



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 10, 2010 - 15:46 Reply with quote Back to top

It is pretty clear cut and I explained it in the thread on TFF as gandresh referenced
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