Darkwolf
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Mar 16, 2004 - 00:16 |
 
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Good points Twahn. Why won't anyone surpise me and hire a star?? I got surprised by a couple of wizards though... Won both games...
When you play me and you see 90K plus in my treasury, be WARNED, I may bring the Tut with my Khermi, or a chainsaw with my scro, or the 6st Pushback master (Blackhoof) for my chaos dwarves. |
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http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coachinfo&coach=768 |
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swilhelm73
Joined: Oct 06, 2003
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Mar 16, 2004 - 06:44 |
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| Twahn wrote: |
It ain't that big a deal... why are we all so busy picking over the rosters of our would be opponents, looking for that perfect opponent that we think our team will be well able to beat? Pathetic. |
Actually I see it in the exact opposite manner.
You challenge someone with an equal team, they say yes, and you add more ST worth of star's/wiz's/etc to your team to get a cheezy win. This is the *only* point in doing so after agreeing to a match in the open ST challenge format of FUMBBL.
I personally don't see how playing the system in such a manner is either sporting or much fun for either participant.
Of course in a tourney or a league, the LRB rules work fine with freebooting. |
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Twahn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 16, 2004 - 07:10 |
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| swilhelm73 wrote: | I personally don't see how playing the system in such a manner is either sporting or much fun for either participant.
Of course in a tourney or a league, the LRB rules work fine with freebooting. |
How is it more fun or sporting when in a League or Tournament? You are still adding "more ST worth of stars... to get a cheesy win". Where's the distinction?
The only possible difference is that you think cherry picking is your right as a participant of the Open system. You carefully plan games based on obviously complex calculations as to whether your opponent is a suitable candidate for your attention. Cherry. Picking.
I say live a little and get over it. Darkwolf's got it right. What if they did hire a wizard? Or Griff? What's the diff?
Dirty tricks like this are not only supported by the rules but by the fluff too. Have fun mate, that's what it's about. You can be extra proud when your team pulls through despite your opponent's dastardly tricks... |
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Faulcon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 16, 2004 - 07:35 |
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Heh, BMM, I copped a nobbla too, was a nasty surprise and murder on my skinks (literally, without my apoth, my ag4 skink was pushing up daisies)  |
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Athoria
Joined: Feb 13, 2004
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Mar 16, 2004 - 07:46 |
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Something I don't understand: Most of you are saying its dastardly, and underhanded to freeboot players, or wizards before a match... But why look at it that way? Think of it like this: The coach has a lot on his mind (in the fantasy world of BB); he's got to make sure all his friggin players show up, gotta make sure his best runner with his two leg injurys (nigs) is gonna be in top shape for the match, he gotta make sure all the cheerleaders, and assistant coaches are present for the match, he's also carefully watching the stands to get the "feel" of the crowd that day, he's checking out the other team, measuring thier strengths, and weaknesses, he's checking out the other head coach, sizing him up, and at the last minute before the match is about to begin... he figures a little extra muscle out there could not hurt him at all... so he check's the teams funds, and decides to give that Wizard that he talked to before the game a shot at using one of his spells for the match, or decides that a Star Player would bolster the teams confidance, and get the fans worked up a bit more....
This is all in the "spirit" of blood bowl, all in the fluff, and should be taken as such... I agree though, that buying a new posistional player before a match goes against the rules, because that should normally entail the signing and negotiating of contracts, and that takes time. Not something that can be done right before a match. But a freebooter? That's kinda like, "Hey you! Yeah, you! 25,000 gold is yours if you get out there and give me all you got!" - right before the ref blows his whistle to start the match...
Athoria |
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Courage is not the absence of fear; merely the presence of fear combined with the willpower to overcome it. |
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swilhelm73
Joined: Oct 06, 2003
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Mar 16, 2004 - 07:57 |
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In a league or tourney you have a schedule or rules as to who plays who from the get go. Teams can be and often are, wildly unequal going into an individual match, and this is the way it is supposed to work.
In case you haven't noticed the open system of fumbbl prompts people to play teams roughly equal in ability to play - this is the whole point of team Strength Rating - since their is no league or tourney guiding who and when you play.
In the open format that holds in FUMBBL, while not against the rules, you are exploiting the system to get an advantage over someone else. You might, for all I know enjoy playing games that are lopsided in your favor, and if so I guess I can see the joy that pulling such a surprise on, probably, a newbie could bring. This is kind of drive to win at the expense of good sportsmenship is nothing more then an element of cherrypicking which you claim to abhor.
I have to say that fortunately such a willingness to exploit the rules at the expense of the fun factor for both you and your opponent is a rarity on FUMBBL. I've only had the stunt pulled on me personally once.
If you want a fun and fair experience don't game the system. If you have sheerly a drive to win then go ahead and use every exploit you can find. I think one can argue quite easily that training games and challenging with one team while showing up with another are both also supported by the fluff.
Personally, I leave my dirty tricks and sneaky plans on the blood bowl field itself. |
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cthol
Joined: Nov 10, 2003
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Mar 16, 2004 - 10:24 |
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ummmm, my 2 cents:
<You challenge someone with an equal team, they say yes, and you add more ST worth of star's/wiz's/etc to your team to get a cheezy <win. This is the *only* point in doing so after agreeing to a match in the open ST challenge format of FUMBBL.
<I personally don't see how playing the system in such a manner is either sporting or much fun for either participant.
Well, what's the problem here? You imply that in a league it's ok to wait until right before the game to spring a surprise on the other coach, but not in open? What's wromg with that? Think of it this way: I have 100,000 in the bank, and am looking for a game. i don't know who's going to challehge me, I'll have to wait and see. When I get a game I'll hire a freebooter depending on what team I'm playing. To take an example: I would hire Zara the Slayer if I ended up playing undead, but she's a bit of a waste against other teams, where I might rather have Griff Oberwald, or Morgh. Where's the problem with this? I don't see why coaches in open should have to buy their freebooters in advance of a game. I think the bottom line is this: you see a team's TR and STR when you look for a game. If their TR is higher, then you have to expect that they might have a lot of cash sitting around, and that they might hire a star or a wizard or whatever. If you want to be sure, just check the team page: no-one can stop you doing this, you don't need the other coach's permission, or a link or anything. Just go to the coach page and find out what you want to know. I know it takes a bit of time, and often the guy has found another game by the time you get back, which sucks, but the TR/STR display in IRC is only meant to give a rough indication of a team's strength, according to two different and complementary formulas. If you want to decide games on more than this basic information, then you have to look at the team page, otherwise we're into showing all possible information about a team in IRC, which equals a lot of spam in the channel...
sorry for the long-winded post, but I tried to keep it relevant |
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Clementus
Joined: Oct 01, 2003
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Mar 16, 2004 - 10:47 |
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Dont think people are getting the BASIC idea.
Freebooters, stars are OK.
Buying NEW players is BAD.
Thats what most people think but unfortunately most of you are arguing over the same little point.
As for realism, its alot easier for a coach to give that star/freebooter a ring, than to go and search out and scout a new player entirely. Please dont take this to literally, aint the real point.
Just Generally, freebooters are pretty much allowed though warning is nice, Buying new players is deeply frowned upon at least by me if not other admin.
Clem |
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Monkey of the Moot!
Flings Rule! |
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swilhelm73
Joined: Oct 06, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 16, 2004 - 10:56 |
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| cthol wrote: |
Well, what's the problem here? You imply that in a league it's ok to wait until right before the game to spring a surprise on the other coach, but not in open? What's wromg with that? |
Please put in some paragraph breaks
As for the difference it should be obvious.
Let's say I'm in a league. Week 1 my opponent is team X, week 2, team Y, week 3, team Z and so on.
Whatever I do with my team I will be playing these teams - and it doesn't matter where their relative strengths are in comparison to mine. This is the way BB is normally played (or in a tourney), and this is what the freebooting sequence was written for.
Now, let's look at FUMBBL open format.
I put up a bb lfg looking to play another team about the same strength as mine so as to have a good and enjoyable game.
I get a response and check his team rating which is about equal to mine so I say yes and he asks me to host.
When he joins the game he's added say Count Luthor, Griff and Zug. Presuming my opponent is roughly my skill level and luck doesn't hit an extreme he's now going to win...easily.
Seeing as I was looking for a game against a equal team, and I've now been deceived into playing an unequal game, I probably won't have much fun. My opponent won't have much challenge but they will win, maybe enjoyable for them, and maybe not. This, again, is the only point in surprising your opponent with additional stars/wizards/etc after you've agreed to play him - to get an easy/easier win.
If my opponent was honest and said up front what he was going to do, I could make an informed choice as to whether I wanted to play up SR or not - but in this case my opponent has decided not to respect his fellow FUMBBL coach enough to do so.
It should be pointed out that this is essentially the same phenomenon as offering one team in chat and showing up with another - though admittedly generally on a smaller scale.
There is no need, IMO, to tell your would be opponent what you are going to freeboot specifically in chat, if you feel like doing so, but there is a moral obligation to give him a rough idea of how much of an advantage you are going to add. |
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H-Hund
Joined: Jan 19, 2004
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 Posted:
Mar 16, 2004 - 11:16 |
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When you have a high TR/TS you don't wanna have more than 11 players... so i think this must be about low TR/TS teams, buying players is a part of the game but with the fumbbl TS System, it can be a sneaky way to get an easy game.
If the opponent buys a player just before the game, then foul that player to hell 
//H-Hund |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 16, 2004 - 16:47 |
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| Clementus wrote: | Dont think people are getting the BASIC idea.
Freebooters, stars are OK.
Buying NEW players is BAD. |
Even if that is so, which rookie players do make a difference actually (especially in comparison to freebooters)?
Most times it should be just a dude with Block and maybe not even that.
Anyhow, I think that it is cool feature that you can acquire new players/booters/wizzies after agreeing on a game!  |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 16, 2004 - 17:15 |
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| Grumbledook wrote: | Just don't play anyone who has lots of money stored up in their treasury, this is why you should arrange matches going off the TR rather than the team strength system, its also why the TR systems should contain a teams treasury in its rating.
If you can't stick to these two simple things then you have no one to blame but yourself. |
Well in an recent, yet odd, trend, I agree fully with Grumble. You all have yourselves to blame for using Team Str to find matches. And now maybe you will see why the TR formula is fine. I have been sayin' it since STR was introduced.
Asperon Thorn |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 16, 2004 - 18:57 |
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Scary precedent being set. People starting to agree with Grumble. Could it be possible that the rest of us are wearing off on him? |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 16, 2004 - 19:28 |
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Speaking of scary precedents, I think I'm actually going to admit to a mistake. I think I've been swayed that it is legal to freeboot wizards, stars or players after arranging a match.
I still think it's sleazy, however, and I don't believe I'll be pulling it any time soon. Take with a grain of salt from a guy who doesn't really foul much, though.
| AsperonThorn wrote: | | ...And now maybe you will see why the TR formula is fine. I have been sayin' it since STR was introduced. |
Well, TS still fulfills its purpose of calculating ranking. A team that freeboots a star has their TS increased as well to reflect their improved odds of winning a match. I do agree that it's a crutch to rely exclusively on TS (or anything else!) to arrange matches, however. |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Clementus wrote: | | Buying NEW players is BAD. |
But, it IS allowed according to the FUMBBL rules and it will stay that way.
The admins have no good way to keep track of when a team has accepted to play another and if someone dropped from a game (after handicap / niggle rolls) stating that "my opponent bought a player" we have no way of knowing if this is true or not.
It might be sleazy and unfair, but the reality is that alot of the rules we have are there so that we don't have to fall back on "who do we trust most" situations. |
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