| Poll |
| did you prefer to play with (not against) the old or new khemri |
| Old |
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42% |
[ 64 ] |
| New |
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21% |
[ 32 ] |
| Pie |
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35% |
[ 53 ] |
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| Total Votes : 149 |
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Lakrillo
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
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 Posted:
Nov 05, 2010 - 16:13 |
 
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| Purplegoo wrote: |
Whilst I agree this was the reasoning behind the nerf historically; I still can't believe for one second LRB5 Khemri were overpowered. I just don't see it, and I don't buy the data sources that are always dragged up either. I will admit my time playing loads of league TT was LRB6 in the main, however, so it's just paper talk to me.
This is an argument I always have with a good TT / PBEM coach when we meet up, he's in the 'too good' corner, I'm in the 'You must be on drugs'. I just don't see it.
However, it's all ancient history now, they are what they are!  Perhaps I'm massively wrong, but this is the one argument I'm happy to look at again and again, I think it's crazy! |
The problem was that noone could forsee what would happen to Khemri in LRB5.
They didn't prove broken in the hands of noobs, but in the hands of a good coach who was good at controlling the field, they were almost unstoppable. |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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| Posted:
Nov 05, 2010 - 17:06 |
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I prefer the Khamaro. It is much better at attracting the ladies than the Khamry.
The New Khemri requires better coaching for success and some slight tweaks to their strategy.
Good coaches should welcome this new challenge and should already see some of those new strategy changes.
The New Khemri should limit the number of psychopaths and power gamers from choosing them to kill things for awhile.
The team that got nerfed was the Norse. Where has the challenge in playing them gone?
Now they are as good as Necros, Undead, Humans and others where as before they were true underdogs. |
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Over-dose
Joined: Feb 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Dec 25, 2010 - 13:01 |
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I think the changes are fine overall, but the decay on the tomb guardians is just too much...regarding team development, khemri have a hard time anyway but making those tomb guardians die/niggle more easily...well just not cool |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 25, 2010 - 13:04 |
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khermi should've been removed, but the changes were the next best thing to it... of course now a formerly competetive team has become a team that will struggle against most opponents |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 25, 2010 - 14:18 |
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| Lakrillo wrote: | | Purplegoo wrote: |
Whilst I agree this was the reasoning behind the nerf historically; I still can't believe for one second LRB5 Khemri were overpowered. I just don't see it, and I don't buy the data sources that are always dragged up either. I will admit my time playing loads of league TT was LRB6 in the main, however, so it's just paper talk to me.
This is an argument I always have with a good TT / PBEM coach when we meet up, he's in the 'too good' corner, I'm in the 'You must be on drugs'. I just don't see it.
However, it's all ancient history now, they are what they are! Perhaps I'm massively wrong, but this is the one argument I'm happy to look at again and again, I think it's crazy! |
The problem was that noone could forsee what would happen to Khemri in LRB5.
They didn't prove broken in the hands of noobs, but in the hands of a good coach who was good at controlling the field, they were almost unstoppable. |
Yeah, I don't buy it even a little. A good coach who knows how to control the field can win with any team. And the game really didn't change enough for me to believe that Khemri went from sucking (coz they do suck) to being unstoppable.
It has always been the have-a-win-team-if-you-don't-mind-losing-a-few-players team. Now it's just the have-a-win team.
Now I must admit, I have no clue if Khamri are good. |
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Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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Astarael
Joined: Aug 14, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 25, 2010 - 14:42 |
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Old Khemri was far better.
There was no real need for them to get nerfed like they did, their win% was behind that of Amazons, Lizardmen, Skaven, Wood Elf, Undead, Elf, Chaos Dward, Dwarf, Orc, Dark Elf, High Elf, Norse, Human and Necro.
Sure they had the highest casualty ratio, but getting the bashing stuff was balanced by their inabilities with the ball. Now they lack bash and ball. A pointless nerf to appease the pixel huggers. (Same as what happened to Ogres who actually had the worst win% and got the biggest nerf). |
_________________
Oh my. |
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MasterMiyagi
Joined: May 21, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 25, 2010 - 14:58 |
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Actually I miss only the general access for the tomb gurdians, now much tricky to play with them. The positive changing is the thick skull for skelos, and the kick-off return for throw-ras could be really useful. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 25, 2010 - 15:32 |
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I'm sorry, it was easier to win with the old khemri then with any other race below tr 200.
They really needed a fix and it's not healthy for the game to have that kind of bashablity. I'm really glad for what they did. (no idea about lrb5) |
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Astarael
Joined: Aug 14, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 25, 2010 - 16:02 |
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Well I can't use any stats for TR, but using TS here's the rankings from http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=stats&op=rankings.
0-90: 11th
90-110: 8th
110-130: 13th
130-150: 15th
150-170: 18th
170-190: 19th
190-210: 21st
210-230: 21st
230-250: 21st
250+: 21st
So I don't see how you can say they were easier to win with than any other race when at their PEAK they're beaten by 7 races, and for 190TS+ they're stone cold last. |
_________________
Oh my. |
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avien
Joined: May 07, 2006
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| Posted:
Dec 25, 2010 - 17:33 |
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I found the nerf very surprising when it happened and I still don't belive it was necessary. As has already been pointed out, LRB4 Khemri wasn't a good team to win with. LRB5 Khemri might have made them better, but I very much doubt that they were that good. Most of the time it was fun to play against them, even if you were in risk of losing a few players. It required a bit different thinking than many other opponents and you had good odds of winning the game if you played it right. I think that the new Khemri looks nerfed beyond hope of beeing competive, which is a shame. I have not tried them and doubt I would've anyway, nerf or no nerf. |
_________________
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Hero164
Joined: Jan 20, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 25, 2010 - 21:22 |
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MasterMiyagi
Joined: May 21, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 26, 2010 - 14:11 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | I'm sorry, it was easier to win with the old khemri then with any other race below tr 200.
They really needed a fix and it's not healthy for the game to have that kind of bashablity. I'm really glad for what they did. (no idea about lrb5) |
Have they got any other opportuinities except being bashy? |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 26, 2010 - 14:45 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | I'm sorry, it was easier to win with the old khemri then with any other race below tr 200.
They really needed a fix and it's not healthy for the game to have that kind of bashablity. I'm really glad for what they did. (no idea about lrb5) |
Are you a games designer as well?  |
_________________
Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 26, 2010 - 16:08 |
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asta: If people don't play them competetive and rather focus on fouling they will have a much worse winning ratio. I can only reference my only experience with that race and that's that I win with them and lose against them, no matter what race I play. So yes, I have a pretty high opiinion of them.
Myagi. Outnumbering the opponent is all it takes to win a game. The four mummies are almost impossible to stop and allow an unhindered advance and a not too bad positioning game. The general access makes the team more reliable then many other races on the most important actions. Fouling is kinda misunderstood since Khemri need supportive players on the field and rather need to avoid that their own mummies get a boot. But of course it is worthwile to exchange a skeleton for a good player here and there. A skilling into direction of block makes them more reliable tho. Regarding Blitz-Ras as with Weights they suffer from an overpriced block skill but can be build constuctivly into the team. An agility + on one of the non mummy players can secure victories. Lots of rerolls are of substantial importance. Preparations should be made for a failed pickup every time and the recieving setups should be made defensivly and accordingly. Low skeletton prices allow for a high player count on the team. Besides mummies, rerolls and skelletons everything is expendable.
The strong suit of the khemri is the defense. The four mummies can break almost any cage and only very high speed and good passing game may allow to outrun them once in a while and force them back into a recieving position. However the opponent will hardly manage to controll the clock wich gives opportunities for an offensive game.
THe obstacles usually lie with the pick up. If that part is archieved, victory is already close. Ties may not be avoided often enough and a victory can not be enforced every time. But a loss can be prevented.
Overall they give or gave a huge opportunity to win against even the most undesired opponents and add the meta gameing aspect of enourmous bashiness, only challenged by high level chaos claw/rsc teams. If the team would be actually a joke if it came to winning I wouldn't mind it the other thing too much to be honest. I can appreciate ogres for that... But then again I don't percieve Ogres as bashy at all ...they require a much different approach.
I'd like to compare these observations to the new Khemri team, but I haven't really tested them yet.
One thing remains certain tho: The advantages and dynamics of the old team are removed almost entirely. And I'm glad about it. |
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Astarael
Joined: Aug 14, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 26, 2010 - 16:34 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | | asta: If people don't play them competetive and rather focus on fouling they will have a much worse winning ratio. I can only reference my only experience with that race and that's that I win with them and lose against them, no matter what race I play. So yes, I have a pretty high opiinion of them. |
A valid point but let's have a look at your (win%)win/tie/losses with each race.
Amazon: (70) 59/13/21
Chaos: (64) 62/19/31
Chaos Dwarf: (73) 78/16/24
Dark Elf: (66) 15/3/7
Dwarf: (65) 48/14/22
Elf: (72) 27/2/10
Goblin: No data
Halfling: (53) 24/10/21
High Elf: (68 ) 128/44/50
Human: (69) 58/13/22
Khemri: (61) 44/9/26
Lizardmen: (61) 18/3/11
Necromantic: (63) 37/11/20
Norse: (70) 60/5/24
Nurgle: No data
Ogre: (62) 36/7/21
Orc: (70) 45/18/14
Skaven: (68 ) 19/3/8
Undead: No data.
Vampire: (72) 21/7/6
Wood Elf: (52) 55/25/50
It seems you're better with 16 of the other races.
I've played Khemri a lot and I'd like to think I'm fairly good with them compared to my quality with other races for that. However, unless you get lucky with +ag and +ma then a team with only two ma6+ and no ag3 is difficult to control the ball with, you can get outpositioned by most teams and don't have the backup of being able to offload the ball to safety as easily. It's not impossible, and played well you can still do well with them.. but it's harder than other races. In LRB6 you do have slightly better ma so positioning is slightly better which is a small boost, with that I can agree. However, you're still only at four ma6+ so a good coach will still be able to outposition you, the agile teams will be able to outmanouver and be harder to whittle down. And the bashy teams will now outbash you if they're sensible and target the skeletons (even with thick skull).
Imo they've gone from 'competitive but underdogs' to 'challenge race'. Aka a race you use simply because they're hard to do well with.
Stats taken from: http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches |
_________________
Oh my. |
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