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Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 11:00 Reply with quote Back to top

In the past there have been a couple of discussions about making skills optional. In the newest version of the ffb beta Kalimar decided to give in on the requests and finally decided to test the practicability of an optional dodge skill.
Now it is on us to give him some feedback.

Since I already tested it and am not exactly happy, I'd like to bring this issue up here for discussion.

Rules and Practicability
Undoubted is that not using dodge can be helpfull in some rare cases. The rules allow us to either use it or not use it.
On the other hand appears the question of the practicability of such an implementation.

Ways of Implementation
popups
In the course of events there have been several suggestions about how to implement skills. One with reference to earlier clients noted that many popups wouldn't be a problem.
My personal opinon is that that just isn't true. Being asked to use dodge and then sidestep and possibily a bunch of other skills on a single action is a big margin for error and a waste of time. Not only because you have to click all these windows aways but also because you have to read them attaintivly to not get confused about for what reason a pop up is showing up this time. I predict that the chance for error will extend the chance for efficient use by 50 times or 5000%.
So the first thing to have this conversation really is to admit that practicability is a factor in the client that needs attention aswell.
If you think lengths and enjability of the game is nothing in comparison to rule accuracy this debate is already pointless. But let me get into why "The site follows the rules" argument isn't such a helpfull advise in this case later.

Deactivate Playerskills
My own suggestion was to be able to click on the players skill. Once to deactivate the skill temporarly or twice to deactivate it permanently (till reactivation).
It mostly served the purpose of creating a banalance between playability and having enough options. Putting the passive coach in a disadvantage in the sense that he had to plan ahead for the next turn seemed an acceptable sacrifize. That was rejected by the most. Thinking ahead isn't everyones strong suit. The advantage of this solution would be that it could be done for just all the skills without any difficulty or game intereferance.
I have however been even converted against this approach when somebody told me the following example:
The tackle-dodge example
A guy with tackle decides not to use tackle. The player with the dodge skill doesn't get to choose not to use dodge because it isn'T his turn and loses out. This problem never would appear if both players would just continue to use their skills.

Activate Skill Optionality
Now I must admit allowing some people to use optional skills would be a better solution for me then being asked every time and to be just unbotherd. I'm sceptic about this solution for the same reason as in the Deactivate Playerskills approach. The Tackle-Dodge Example would put players who disregard the optionality simply at disadvantage thus forcing them to use it to not get at a disadvantage if the opponent surprisingly decides not to use a skill and he had to respond to it. This will lead eventually to more popups and a poorer game experience.

Create-Conditions-For-Optionality Approach
As I understand Kalimar actually considers to go this rather difficult approach in programming time may want to make the dodge skill only optional where it really matters.
While this would certainly be an excellent way to implement it, in this case the question occurs really how to do it.There are several scenarios where I wouldn't want a player close to the sideline use his dodge skill even if nobody else is close to him. And there are other scenarios where he is being pushed where the same applies. Alltogether it seems unlikely to be possible to cover all cases that would be relevant for the human eye.
After all the circumstances to not use dodge are rather slim and even in the most severe cases a question of taste. Let's make no illusions about this here. A player not using dodge on the respective result means he is going down. And he is going to get hurt... with all the attacking players bashing skills enforced on him.
If you are a promoter of this approach you may want to make some suggestions on how to implement it ideally in case of dodge.

the partly-optional/partly-non-optional approach
That's also something we have right now. Tendencies go into a general optionality. In my opinon there are very few skills that you wouldn't want to work sometimes optional.
I definatly see it for Block. Tackle I already mentioned. Even Mighty Blow for those days where you don't want that other player to disappear from the pitch because you need him for some chain action. DP-Sneaky gitz combo I brought up several years ago. Strip Ball - maybe it's easier to controll the ball on the player then without him. Sure Feet- I'm close enough to the endline to reach it lying next turn. If only this claw mb piling on guy doesn'T give me a spanking next turn. I really have to go on the ground. And so on and so on.

Conclusion
I don't think all the skills should be made optional where there might be a point. There should be some playability considerations in the game aswell. And in the case of dodge, smooth play simply becomes the priority. If that isn'T all convincing enough I'd like to bring up another case I noticed a while ago.
The Ball-Corner-Case
A guy was raising the question in a thread a while ago if he would violate the rules if he would put the ball into a corner of the pitch during a kick off.
The surprising response of an admin was: Yes, he would indeed be in violation of the site rules because he'd increase the chances that the ball bounces out and this way he would help his opponent in the approach to score and gain spp even if such a TD could be non game deciding and prevent harm from his own players.
Opponents of this decision then argued that similar decisions are made in the game all the time. The admin however insisted that the clearity of the case that would only give an obvious disadvantage in the respective situation could not be tolerated. Apparently thinking ahead wasn't that important.

And that's what I initially meant when I said that the site rules aren't really supporting here an approach of too free choice. While it may be unclear in many cases a coach who puts his players willingly in harms way and excerts armor rolls against them if he could avoid it and allows his opponent to gain spp that way, at least raises the question of a site rule violation every time.
The benefit is usually marginal, sometimes based on wrong assumption and in general not easy to justify before someone other then oneself.

Therefore I'd suggest to not optionalize any skills that invoke armor rolls and to avoid a whole bĂșnch of new precedences that didn't really help to make the game better in the first place.

All the other skills I guess need each an individual handling but atm I'd like to hear right now what some others think about dodge and if they see a good way to implement it in one of the other variants.


Last edited by Wreckage on Dec 19, 2010 - 14:14; edited 2 times in total
SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 13:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I simply dont agree:

When 1d you have only 1/6 chance to get the popup.
When 2D if the oppo is smart enough to chose pushback or pow then it has 1/6 chance again, and if you have a simple dodger and he has block and/or tackle its even below that. Not to mention 3D.

For Side Step and Stand Firm you got 100%. I know Dodge is more common.

C'mon guys learn to click on pushback to avoid popup for opponents!

EDIT: I hope it is also an incentive for both coaches to stay at the side of the pitch instead of facebooking during the match.
Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 13:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm sure there is a situation where I wouldn't want to use dodge but I can't think of it so can someone give an example please.
blocknroll



Joined: Aug 04, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 13:28 Reply with quote Back to top

if you're trying to stop being frenzied off the edge of the pitch?
malitrius



Joined: Sep 07, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 13:33 Reply with quote Back to top

ok that is one, what about making dodge optional when blocked with frenzy?

any other examples?
Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 13:33 Reply with quote Back to top

thanks Smile
Cryo



Joined: Dec 12, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 13:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Examples:
you are getting crowdpushed by a frenzy
The opponent is planning to use you for a chainpush
you are getting in the way for a TD and can only hope for a KO ... or worse
you are the only player left in your team and a skilless guy is pushing you towards the claw/RSC/PO/tackle monster
you have jump up and want to use it once in your lifetime
Hitonagashi



Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 13:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Malmir wrote:
I'm sure there is a situation where I wouldn't want to use dodge but I can't think of it so can someone give an example please.


And stopping a 1 turn td Smile
mr-maverick



Joined: Sep 10, 2010

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 13:37 Reply with quote Back to top

I've had situations in stunty when a ball and chain player hit one of my own, i would have loved not to be able to use the tackle skill he had as it caused me a turnover and damage to my own player. I would be for the popups as i think the benefits of choice and being able to follow the rules exceed the annoying popups

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Lakrillo



Joined: Sep 12, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 13:43 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the optional dodge should be reprogrammed so you just have the option of not using it when you are pushed next to a sideline.
That would cover 90% of the real cases where you would not want to use dodge anyway.

I think the dodge-pop-up is quite disturbing to be honest.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 13:47 Reply with quote Back to top

One of the main reasons why dodge should be optional is to prevent OTTD so there needs to be a way to incorporate this it the pop is only going to appear at specific times.

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Lakrillo



Joined: Sep 12, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 13:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok, when you are getting pushed next to the sideline, or the push will result in a chainpush. That should cover most of the cases then.
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 13:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
One of the main reasons why dodge should be optional is to prevent OTTD.

I guess you mean one turn touchdowns.... Putting players on the frontline that don't have dodge has worked fine for me till now tho Smile .. In fact it even adds to the game tactically
blocknroll



Joined: Aug 04, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 13:54 Reply with quote Back to top

tricky with zons tho wreckage ;p
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 19, 2010 - 14:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Exactly also tricky with high TV elf teams.

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