Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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 Posted:
Jan 05, 2011 - 10:36 |
 
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So, I did a silly thing. I engaged myself in a thread elsewhere that began as a bit of a slight on the FUMBBL community (usual stuff, someone was rude, newcomer didn't like that or the RNG, those that choose to dislike us enjoyed piling on), but moved into an interesting segway, it's claimed on top of that, the User Guide is poor for a newcomer and the site setup far from intuitive. A combination of these factors, it's claimed, may put off newbies. I'd like to suggest, at the very outset of this thread, that those that know where the other conversation is don't wade in with their big size nines and feed the thing oxygen, don't make my error. It'll be dead in a couple of days if you don't feed the Troll.
The first issue is well worn. I don't believe that if a newcomer rocks up, is polite and does a bit of a forum search, that this community will then be mean to him. I simply don't believe this. Whilst we have a few forum wags that do enjoy a bit of a hazing (and sometimes, whilst being funny, go too far and do stick out a bit in these days of lowered volume) on those that haven't spent five minutes looking at the forum, I don't believe FUMBBL to be anywhere near an issue if you look at the internet as a whole. I believe we're pretty nice, by and large.
The second issue interests me more, since it's one I don't see cited often. When I joined FUMBBL, I was a total computer n00b, someone you couldn't trust with anything. However, with an hour's reading, I'd installed the LRB4 client, IRC chat, knew how to lfg, and was well away with basis strategy and tips. There are two suggestions being made; a) we shouldn't expect new users, even idiots like me, to invest that sort of time, it will put them off, and b) that my experience is atypical, that the User Guide is far from intuitive, and indeed the wider site isn't great in the way it's laid out. Newbies can find the site impenetrable.
Whilst I don't agree with either of these points, we do sit at a site crossroads. Numbers are way down, and we're ten days away from the FFB client dropping, perhaps attracting the attention of lapsed users and also newbies, infact, many (including myself) see this as the start of a period of sustainable growth, or at least, a chance at sustainable growth. It seems to be a time where a recruitment push will be handy. Whilst the site layout is beyond our control as a group, is this the time as a community to spend a week or so touching up the User Guide? With the FFB client, how long should we expect a total FUMBBL n00b to spend before they're getting something out of the site (i.e. playing a game)? Half an hour? Ten minutes?
As I flick through the User Guide, I note two things. One, it's LRB4 centric. This is fine, the site to date has never officially progressed past this. It won't take much to add LRB6 bits, or even put the odd note in here or there explaining out of date information. Second, I see the Quick Start guide following a couple of clicks from the front page, and think it's excellent and intuitive and that even an impatient newbie should be able to join the dots. But I do realise I'm an old hand, and it's hard to look at things afresh after so long.
So, input from both grizzled old campaigners and newcomers welcome. Is the User Guide all it could be? Am I wrong, is it rubbish and unhelpful? What do we think needs touching up prior to the 15th? I can certainly put a couple of hours in, if a few of us do, it won't take much to touch it up, if indeed, we see the need to do so. Afterall, if it helps us retain even 5% more of those that happen across the site, it can't be a bad thing. |
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Ullakkomorko
Joined: Aug 10, 2008
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Jan 05, 2011 - 12:00 |
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I remember being a little overwhelmed when I joined.
But I did look through the User Guide just now and it is really confusing. I think the main issue, as pointed out above, is the fact that it's LRB4 centric. I'd imagine most recent new people have been interested in FFB and especially now as the FFB client will be the main client, that should really be changed in the User Guide.
That, and the indexing could be better too. |
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freak_in_a_frock
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 05, 2011 - 12:09 |
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Personally I feel that the site is very welcoming to those that are willing to ask for help, but quite rude to those that are too shy or socially awkward to ask. I feel that we, as a community, need to be more accepting of new players and understand that not everyone has the patience to search for every detail they need to know before plunging in. These aren't always bad or rude coaches, just impulsive. Hell, how often do us regular players buy a game at the shops and try to play it before reading the manual? How is this any different to newbiies?
How to improve the site for new users?..(The following is assuming the FFB migration goes well)
For a starter the quick start guide needs to be completely over-hauled. We need all references to Ski-Junkies client removed from it. (No disrespect to Ski Junkie, we love him still). This new revised quick start should be immediately accessible from the front pag of the site, in big writing, with arrows pointing at it....and a fanfare for when it is clicked (ok maybe no fanfare). The quick start should go a little like this..
1/ Sign up for new account (With friendly reminder of multi accounting rules)
2/ When sign up e-mail is sent it should link to the next part of the guide.
3/ Rules. Read them. Agree to them. Move on to next part.
4/ Create team, with an added option of creating a 'Default Team'. A default team will be a predesigned team of the selected race in a specfic division (i suggest Box for ease of getting game, especially if the auto game launch function gets implemented see below for more details). The default team will be populated by randomly named players (it works for Journeymen why not use it more?)
5/ Explain IRC etc. Also explain 'bblfg' etc.
6/ Ask if they want to list their team. If yes enter the team into box draw/put on gamefinder.
Now as for the auto launch idea. Kalimar has said that it is feasible so read on...
When teams are drawn for a Box draw they are automatically assigned a game name. When you click the 'Play' link the site will launch the client that then automatically populates the game name. This means that it will be possible to play a game in the Box without ever even needing to use IRC. Since i feel one of the biggest obstacles blocking new coaches is the lack of knowledge on how IRC works I think this would be the thing needed to truely make the site newbie friendly. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jan 05, 2011 - 12:18 |
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Amazing idea freak.
I think all the team help etc can be got rid of as well, it is out of date now and we can just link to a site like bbtactics as they have all the starting rosters anyway, that, plasmoids playbooks and TFF. Between those 3 websites anyone should be able to get to grips with the game, and it would get rid of the clutter in the help pages. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Jan 05, 2011 - 12:25 |
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Freak, I'll sidestep the first, well worn, paragraph if that's ok. Much of what you've written is stuff that we as users don't really have much say over - if such a site joining overhaul is needed (and much of what you say seems fairly good to me), there's only one man that can provide it. What we can influence is that User Guide document. So whilst I'm not discarding the sequence you've laid out there (it seems excellent), I'm just not sure we can do much about it in the short term. The IRC point, for instance, resonates strongly with me, and if such a quickstart is doable, all the better, but that's not something we can help with.
What, perhaps, we can do as a community is come up with a sticking plaster sort of affair. A 'New Coaches, just joined in 2011? - Read this!' document in big letters that sits right on top of the User Guide, with all of the up-to-date intel on how to make an account, how to join IRC (and why that's useful), how to make a team, lfg and use Kalimar's client, and a brief set of notes on site layout, divisions, etc. Whilst this sticking plaster is in place, the FFB rollout can occur, the bulk of the User Guide can be updated as and when people get chance (or restructured if people like Garion think it helps - I actually think there is a great deal of good stuff there I'd be loathe to lose), and perhaps we can have a more extensive discussion (perhaps involving the big man) on the sequence with which newbies get signed up.
There is a caveat to all this, of course. Before Cyanide / LRB6, the site was banging along very much a-ok, and might well get back to somewhere approaching old levels with the changes afoot. Ontop of that, this topic took 80 reads before anyone replied. The undercurrent I'm trying to tap into here is this; OK, the User Guide may not be perfect, but is it simply good enough for 90%+? |
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Enigma179
Joined: Sep 19, 2010
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Jan 05, 2011 - 12:35 |
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I got here just a short while ago, and I found the quickstart guide relatively useful. Wasn't hard to find in my opinion, and not too difficult to follow (although sometimes the layout of the site in general is confusing or just plain awful).
But then again, I screw around with programming a lot, and I like to think that I'm reasonably competent with computers, so I don't know if I'd be the best sample space for this 
Overall I think the user guide could use an overhaul in any case. |
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The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, *poof*... he's gone |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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Jan 05, 2011 - 12:37 |
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Ok, reading is key. It really is.
Also, why shouldn't we expect new users to put in time to know what the hell they are doing? Seriously, I could do without lazy people and idiots using the site. Oh wait... I see a flaw here 
Now that I've gotten that out of my system...
One thing about the site, that I love but also find a bit strange, is the customizable page themes. Personally I prefer v3, and I switched to it really quickly after joining the site because I found the Root theme confusing. It's the first thing new users see when they join the site and it's by far the worst layout available.
This isn't about the user guides, but then I haven't read those in years and I had no problems understanding them when I did. So I guess I'm fine with how they are. I just wanted to comment on the wider user friendliness of the site.
But really, we don't want the site to be inaccessible. But we also want it to be useful after you've gotten into the game. Simple is good. Too simple is bad. With the move to FFB the biggest hurdle we had before in terms of user friendliness will be gone. Because the skii client was THE hurdle you had to get past to play on fumbbl.
Just because something requires a little time and effort doesn't mean it's inaccessible either. Well maybe it would if this was just a game. But it isn't because, lets face it, that's not what Fumbbl is.
Blood Bowl isn't the property of Fumbbl. This is a community. If you're just after the game without any kind of investment into the site, then there are other options for you to enjoy BB.
That's my way of saying that the user guides are fine (but should be updated to the new edition, or saved in a lrb4 archive once new guides are written for CRP). |
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Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Jan 05, 2011 - 12:38 |
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| Enigma179 wrote: | | (although sometimes the layout of the site in general is confusing or just plain awful). |
Could you expand on that? As someone that's been here for years, I think I'm just so used to the site layout that I can't objectively critique it.
| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | | This is a community. If you're just after the game without any kind of investment into the site, then there are other options for you to enjoy BB. |
I personally agree with this sentiment (I feel this quote is representative of the bits of your post that deal with this point). But allow me to play Devil's Advocate and make the point the Troll who hooked me in elsewhere made (in my own words); is this realistic? Is the sort of person FUMBBL targets as a newcomer likely to invest the sort of time and effort we're demanding before they're immersed in the community? We care because we've invested time already, afterall. In a World of ever decreasing attention spans, ever easier to use tools and programs, is it fair of us to expect effort from a newcomer? And if we decide that it is fair; do we care that we are potentially putting people off by taking this stance, especially when we could do with the numbers?
I can see the flaws in that logic, don't get me wrong, but that's the point the person on the other side of that debate would make. |
Last edited by Purplegoo on %b %05, %2011 - %12:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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Jan 05, 2011 - 12:40 |
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| Enigma179 wrote: | | (although sometimes the layout of the site in general is confusing or just plain awful). |
Absolutely agree. And as I probably failed to point out in my rambling post, the layout of the site, at least the main layout is terrible. And after the switch to FFB it will be the major thing keeping newcomers from enjoying the site. |
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Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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Ullakkomorko
Joined: Aug 10, 2008
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Jan 05, 2011 - 13:08 |
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| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | Just because something requires a little time and effort doesn't mean it's inaccessible either. Well maybe it would if this was just a game. But it isn't because, lets face it, that's not what Fumbbl is.
Blood Bowl isn't the property of Fumbbl. This is a community. If you're just after the game without any kind of investment into the site, then there are other options for you to enjoy BB. |
I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect someone to make any kind of "investment" (obviously not the monetary kind) into the Fumbbl community before playing any games, especially as there's really no reason not to give someone a free sample before making any investments. And in this sense something is not free if you have to spend a lot of time looking into it first and getting frustrated while doing it. |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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Jan 05, 2011 - 13:20 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | | This is a community. If you're just after the game without any kind of investment into the site, then there are other options for you to enjoy BB. |
I personally agree with this sentiment (I feel this quote is representative of the bits of your post that deal with this point). But allow me to play Devil's Advocate and make the point the Troll who hooked me in elsewhere made (in my own words); is this realistic? Is the sort of person FUMBBL targets as a newcomer likely to invest the sort of time and effort we're demanding before they're immersed in the community? We care because we've invested time already, afterall. In a World of ever decreasing attention spans, ever easier to use tools and programs, is it fair of us to expect effort from a newcomer? And if we decide that it is fair; do we care that we are potentially putting people off by taking this stance, especially when we could do with the numbers?
I can see the flaws in that logic, don't get me wrong, but that's the point the person on the other side of that debate would make. |
These thoughts and arguments did cross my mind when I wrote what I did too.
And my short answer would be: Yes, this is indeed what I would expect from people using the site.
The long answer is that no, we don't care because we've invested time into the place, we invest time in the place because we care. There is a difference.
The fact is that Blood Bowl is a niche game inside a niche market with a very (read VERY) small fan base. Most likely you would never find this site unless you were specifically looking for it. The people who make up the community are actually here because they already have an interest in the game that the community is built around.
The quite eloquent troll post (even if it isn't genuine it does have class!) also assumes that Fumbbl targets people which implies we have a marketing team... or a gun. Don't think we have a marketing team and probably just as many guns as any other site with users from the states.
Also... Why should anyone work their asses off for people who are either too lazy, dumb or selfish to actually respond with any kind of effort themselves? The modern world sucks and we're all doomed to die under a tidal wave of dumbs. |
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Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL
Last edited by Mr_Foulscumm on %b %05, %2011 - %13:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jan 05, 2011 - 13:20 |
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There is some stuff in the help section that is good but if you look through links like this - http://fumbbl.com/help:Strategy All those pages look incredibly cluttered to me. I'm not saying get rid of them but if they could all be put under an LRB4 only section, and have the majority of the help section tailored towards the FFB client and CRP ruleset.
The problem with all of this is the site is in transition at the moment so when should the overhall be done? Should this wait untill the client is live and there are 3 working FFB divisions (R, B and L). Or should this site start tailoring itself for the FFB client now?
| Mr_Foulscumm wrote: |
The fact is that Blood Bowl is a niche game inside a niche market with a very (read VERY) small fan base. Most likely you would never find this site unless you were specifically looking for it. The people who make up the community are actually here because they already have an interest in the game that the community is built around. |
While there is some truth in this, there are also plenty of people that are still picking the game up for the first time today, either buying the box set from GW or buying the cyanide game and I think the point people are trying to make is joining this and getting started should be a simple process and many newcomers seemingly find it hard to get started. This thread was started because of a thread on TFF with many people arguing that site was hard to get to grips with. |
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Last edited by Garion on %b %05, %2011 - %13:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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freak_in_a_frock
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 05, 2011 - 13:21 |
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I agree Ullakkomorko. This is why i think the first priority is getting a newcomer a game. Once that newcomer has played their first game, and has a team with a history (1 game is still a history), then we can expect the newcomer to want to invest his time and effort into the site. Until that newcomer plays that first game it is just another site. Also the moment they connect to that first game is also the moment they connect with the community. At that point they are now in dialogue with another user of the site, who hopefully will be willing to give a few helpful tips to navigating the site. |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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Jan 05, 2011 - 13:21 |
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| Ullakkomorko wrote: | | Mr_Foulscumm wrote: | Just because something requires a little time and effort doesn't mean it's inaccessible either. Well maybe it would if this was just a game. But it isn't because, lets face it, that's not what Fumbbl is.
Blood Bowl isn't the property of Fumbbl. This is a community. If you're just after the game without any kind of investment into the site, then there are other options for you to enjoy BB. |
I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect someone to make any kind of "investment" (obviously not the monetary kind) into the Fumbbl community before playing any games, especially as there's really no reason not to give someone a free sample before making any investments. And in this sense something is not free if you have to spend a lot of time looking into it first and getting frustrated while doing it. |
Didn't see this post because I was answering Pgoo. But turns out I already answered you too. Damn I rock!
edit: I also pointed out in my first post that the Skii client was the main issue with getting into the site before. This problem will soon be gone. Less time, less effort to get a game. |
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Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Jan 05, 2011 - 13:29 |
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Okie doke, Fouly, I do agree (in the main) with the thrust of what you say. However, I also agree with Freak that a Quick Start would be an excellent addition to the site, that way we cover both bases. Get the impatient n00b a game straight off, reel him in, and then expect him to go off and digest the literature and become a fully paid up member of the wasting your life on FUMBBL club. I still think this gap could be bridged with a 'Jan 2011 - come here new coach' easy to use document, mind, in the mean time.
And he is pretty eloquent, it's that eloquence that makes Trolls that bit more dangerous (than say, a CookieShark or a Spiro or something), since people in the internet forum often and easily confuse well worded posts with good points and assume it to be right because it sounds clever. It's how con men get by in the real World, afterall, sucking you in with words, happens everywhere, everyday. It's not like he doesn't have form causing trouble.  |
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