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Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 13:05 Reply with quote Back to top

f_alk wrote:
My point was more not to mix real life into a fantasy game (in both accounts - real/fantasy and life/game). Throwing the game to the ground and calling it divine intervention would mix both again, so from my point of view I couldn't do it.

But discussing economy is not mixing real into fantasy. It expands the logical borders of the world that has been created and puts it into a logic context. Without logic everything is just garbage. Even rules. Having no representation of the non human races living in Warhammer World would make the game in fact more unrealistic, because they do excist and it wouldn't make any sense if they don't play bloodbowl. You can neither overcome the level of abstraction in the game because even purely human teams would in fact not be human beings. The abstracter the world the more important become it's boundaries in reality. Not less. Only through those we are able to relate and understand the world and their in-game dynamics.
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 13:22 Reply with quote Back to top

I'll give you a practicle example:
Let's call strengh fulla, dodge ploing and passing viut. Assists klep and guard addo, agility flear.
We abstract the game to it's dynamics. it's now not a violent sport anymore but only a complex piece game with pieces and dices..
You can push stones that are adjectant to you. They can get into three stages. Normal, klem and removed. If a stone goes on the same square as a squiff it can put the squiff on it's top and put it on any other player by rolling the dice. Now you can define the likelness of that roll by it's flear and the distance to another stone. But the exact roll you have to overcome is not a flear but a number you can read from a special table. This roll is modified by the distance.

As you may notice, the pure abstraction makes it much harder to both understand the game and to make any sense of the dyanmics. In fact they would appear random, pointless and sometimes unneccessarily unbalanced.

The world and atmosphere that is created around the game is something postiive because it helps us to understand what is going on. It makes it easier for us to understand what options we have and why. Therefore the question why we picture a certain aspect of a game with a certain fantastic vision is always a just one.
f_alk



Joined: Sep 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 13:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Wreckage, I think you are putting too much into the original post. While I agree with some and disagree with other of your points in the last two posts, I feel we get distracted from:

"Why do we use 10^3 and not 10^4? - when the rules use 10^0. ... If I throw out a hypothetical value out of air, and relate to a value given by the game rules (and probably valued such in relation to the other values in the rules so that the game is kept in some balance) - why does that not make sense?"
(which is my understanding from the original post. And thus my smiley marked "don't take it too serious" reply. I should have marked the humour and potential sarcasm more).
JimmyFantastic



Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 13:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Actually f alk the rules use 1. A goblin is 4 points, 40 is unnecessary.
Look at 40k for example. Some items cost 1 point so armies cost say 1500 points.
Would anyone make frag grenades cost 10 points and armies 15,000?
The costs are only more in gold than they are in points cos some guy thought it was a good idea.
I would argue that not only is this pointless but that making points = gold cost could be more "realistic" and definitely more elegant.

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Mr_Foulscumm



Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 13:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Beedogs!

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cthol



Joined: Nov 10, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 14:15 Reply with quote Back to top

ummm, it's because having costs based on millions rather than on units adds an air of flamboyance and lavish expense, and also parallels the overpaid sports start of our own world. This make it psychologically easier for us to see bloodbowl players as stars and therefore easier for us to buy into the fantasy. It's kind of like pinball: you could just score 8 points when you hit a target, but 8,000,000 is waaaaaaay cooler. I don't think it's any more complicated that that.

As for why we abbreviate TV to 4 digits instead of 3, meh. I guess it's simply chopping off a comma in the total (so, 1,000,000 becomes1,000). But then, we leave out the comma (TV 1000, not TV 1,000). I think looking for consistency and sense is probably pointless Smile

*edited for dumbicity
Stanley



Joined: Jan 01, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 14:35 Reply with quote Back to top

i always thought the warhammer world was set in the future?????
This being the case there could well be different races by then

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Calthor



Joined: Jan 24, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 14:36 Reply with quote Back to top

FMSTAN wrote:
i always thought the warhammer world was set in the future?????
This being the case there could well be different races by then


Nay, the Warhammer Wold is not in the future, it's more like a parallel reality with similarities to our own.
Enigma179



Joined: Sep 19, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 14:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Well I don't know about you, but when I write 1000s, I leave out the comma; not enough digits to require much counting, most people make sense of one grand without help. Once you reach 10,000 and up though, that's when I put the commas in.

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Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 14:38 Reply with quote Back to top

f_alk wrote:
Wreckage, I think you are putting too much into the original post. While I agree with some and disagree with other of your points in the last two posts, I feel we get distracted from:.

yeh well, I guess it's my impatience for the new client that makes me just want to argue a lot.Very Happy


Last edited by Wreckage on Jan 15, 2011 - 14:39; edited 1 time in total
uuni



Joined: Mar 12, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 14:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Hmm... fantasy economics, one of my favorite subjects.

A thought experiment:

Gate is measured by the two teams both rolling 2d6+FF * 1000, which gives us a total of 4d6+FF+FF * 1000. If FF's average 8 (7 for less faring and 9 for more faring teams), this means that on average there are 14 [4d6] + 8 + 8 = 30 gate, which means an average attendance of 30 000 members of the crowd.

Winnings comes apparently from the ticket sales. Winnings are for the winner 0,5 * (4+5+6)/3 + 0,5 * (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 + 1[not losing]. For the loser, winnings are (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6. Somebody gets about 1 of FAME. in total this comes to (0,5 * 5 + 0,5 * 3,5 + 1) + (3,5) + (1) = 9,75. Winnings is measured in 10 000 gold pieces, which makes the average earnings per attendands to be 97 500 / 30 000 = 3,25 gold pieces.

The price of a ticket - How much is it the then? Both the earnings and the attendance vary quite much. The gate is a 4d6 roll and winnings is a (2..3)d6 roll. We could think that the share of paying customers vary with the differing 1d6. Perhaps the audience can bring their families freely with them or perhaps it is that much easier to sneak into the stadium without payment when there is more of the crowd. Other fantasy economists may offer different theories about this factor, input is welcomed.

With 1d6 of randomness the average case is 3,5, the highest case is 6 and the lowest case is 1. Relatively the highest case then is 6/3,5 = 1,7 and the lowest case is 1/3,5 = 0,3. We could therefore theoretize that the price of a ticket is 6 gp (6/3,5 * 3,25), but the sneaking factor can lower the net per attendand to low point of 1 gp (1/3,5 * 3,25) giving the average result of 3,25 gp.

A ticket to a sport match costs about 6 gps in the Blood Bowl Fantasy Universe we can therefore guess. This could mean that a BB gp is in about par with modern day coaches euro, dollar or pound with a factor between 9 and 1/9.

Other opinions are highly welcomed! Smile
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 14:45 Reply with quote Back to top

uuni wrote:
Other opinions are highly welcomed! Smile

I like these calculations. Yet the tickets must be more expensive since the stadium owner will also want a share. It's gotta be enough to keep up for the expenses due to inducements. I proposed my theories about that on page 1.
gjopie



Joined: Oct 27, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 14:59 Reply with quote Back to top

uuni wrote:
The price of a ticket - How much is it the then? Both the earnings and the attendance vary quite much. The gate is a 4d6 roll and winnings is a (2..3)d6 roll. We could think that the share of paying customers vary with the differing 1d6. Perhaps the audience can bring their families freely with them or perhaps it is that much easier to sneak into the stadium without payment when there is more of the crowd. Other fantasy economists may offer different theories about this factor, input is welcomed.

With 1d6 of randomness the average case is 3,5, the highest case is 6 and the lowest case is 1. Relatively the highest case then is 6/3,5 = 1,7 and the lowest case is 1/3,5 = 0,3. We could therefore theoretize that the price of a ticket is 6 gp (6/3,5 * 3,25), but the sneaking factor can lower the net per attendand to low point of 1 gp (1/3,5 * 3,25) giving the average result of 3,25 gp.

A ticket to a sport match costs about 6 gps in the Blood Bowl Fantasy Universe we can therefore guess. This could mean that a BB gp is in about par with modern day coaches euro, dollar or pound with a factor between 9 and 1/9.

Other opinions are highly welcomed! Smile


While there is undoubtedly some freeriding with stuntier members of the universe being able to sneak (or be thrown) into the stadium, I'd speculate that the difference in attendance and winnings is mostly taken by the stadium owner.

Since the power gap between the owner of the stadium and the teams is so vast, the owner can probably set a price ceiling on the fees paid to teams (something like, you'll be paid x% of the takings, up to a maximum of y). The rest is taken as profit.
Timlagor



Joined: Feb 13, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 15:03 Reply with quote Back to top

cthol wrote:
ummm, it's because having costs based on millions rather than on units adds an air of flamboyance and lavish expense, and also parallels the overpaid sports start of our own world. This make it psychologically easier for us to see bloodbowl players as stars and therefore easier for us to buy into the fantasy. It's kind of like pinball: you could just score 8 points when you hit a target, but 8,000,000 is waaaaaaay cooler. I don't think it's any more complicated that that.
*edited for dumbicity


That may well be the reason.

It's a b----y stupid reason that leads to the nonsense you seen in japanese RPGs**. Doing it for 8 year olds* with Pokemon is one thing, I'd hope BB players would be less easily impressed by 0s.


* yes I have seen 40-year-olds playing it but that's not the target demographic
** though in fairness some of those do start with single digits at low levels, they just don't seem to be able to manage sane scaling.
RC



Joined: Sep 22, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 15:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Don't foget Cabalvision and the other wizzardy thingys they use to broadcast. The endorsements from orca cola and such to. It all generates cashflow that should trickle down to the teams.

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