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Poll
How often do you decide not to use dodge?
I always use dodge if I can, no exceptions. /I'd never play a team that has that skill.(The margin of error is insignificant)
6%
 6%  [ 3 ]
Very Rarely (Less then 2% of my games.)
36%
 36%  [ 16 ]
Rarely (Around 5%)
20%
 20%  [ 9 ]
Seldom Enough (Around 10%)
9%
 9%  [ 4 ]
A good small average (Around 20%)
15%
 15%  [ 7 ]
Comfortable Average/Often (Around 50%)
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
Very often (more then 70% of my games)
9%
 9%  [ 4 ]
All the time (Almost 100% and several times per game.)
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 44


Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 09:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi,
the new client has partial optionality for dodge implemented. This is being when chainpushed, when pushed closed to the side and when pushed over the line of scrimmage in a turn after the kick off.
I'm very happy with how things are now, although I don't see myself hurting my pixels willfully Smile.. Now I'm curious to how often people tend to not use the dodge skill/ make use of the skills optionality.


Last edited by Wreckage on Feb 21, 2011 - 19:06; edited 2 times in total
the_Sage



Joined: Jan 13, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 09:33 Reply with quote Back to top

If my guy gets [defender stumbles]'d next to the sideline, doesn't have sidestep, AND the opponent can push or blitz him out this turn, then yes, I'll opt for no dodge. Otherwise, dodge.

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Lakrillo



Joined: Sep 12, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 09:41 Reply with quote Back to top

I had an opponent going down in this case when i was not planning on blitzing him out of the field. I was a little bit surpriced, but i guess he could not read my mind.

What i find is more important than how often people use the current implementation is if there have been cases where people would have liked to go down and not given the option.

I am quite sure that we covered over 90% of the cases where people would like to not use dodge while eliminating about 90% of the popups which was not necessary, so i am happy with the current implementation, but if there is room for improvements, we could take a look at that.
gandresch



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 13:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi,

i miss three cases in the description of Wreckage above, that i could imagine, where i don't want to use Dodge at all.
1. A player is blocked, has no SS (makes it a bit easier) and the Push/Pow is used. If the player uses Dodge he could potentially be pushed to the tacklezone of a player with Claw/MB/PO and so on, so stuff that modifies AV- or Injury-Roll. In that case i would liked to be asked for using my Dodge skill, if i could be pushed in the TZ of player with such skills and this player hasn't moved yet.
2. The blitz before the chainpush for oneturn or pushing forwrd the ballcarrier to make scoring possible. This blitz or Grab-block doesn't neccessarily push a player over the line of scrimmage. So if a player could be pushed in a situation where afterwards it is possible to chainpush the player, then i would liked to be asked for Dodge. The poor thing here is, that there could potentially be several blocks with perhaps Grab skill, to bring the player in position, to push the ball carrier/upcoming scorer into scoring range. That case is really difficult, if you're a machine who should decide it.
3. Being pushed right beside a player with Frenzy, standing two squares next to the sideline. In this case i could be pushed off the field and perhaps doesn't want to risk my player and do not use Dodge.

These are the situation I can imagine to come up. Especially case 2 is usually occuring, when high teams play against each other, having Grab and the option, to make such situations possible a much easier way. I could imagine some more situations, which are not that important. Should be enough for now Wink

I am sure, not all the coaches want all that questions to be asked, but at least I can imagine all of the situations in at least one of my games, where i perhaps would not have used Dodge at all.

Greets,
gan
gandresch



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 13:32 Reply with quote Back to top

oh, i forgot to mention about point 3:
3. This does not neccessarily have to be a Frenzy player. There could be a "line" of players to the sideline, that have not moved yet. If one of the bocks results in a Push/Pow i would think of not using it. I just thought of a line of Norse, that crowded one of my players, that was standing 5 squares away from the sideline.
Lakrillo



Joined: Sep 12, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 13:34 Reply with quote Back to top

gandresch wrote:
Hi,
...
2. The blitz before the chainpush for oneturn or pushing forwrd the ballcarrier to make scoring possible. This blitz or Grab-block doesn't neccessarily push a player over the line of scrimmage. So if a player could be pushed in a situation where afterwards it is possible to chainpush the player, then i would liked to be asked for Dodge. The poor thing here is, that there could potentially be several blocks with perhaps Grab skill, to bring the player in position, to push the ball carrier/upcoming scorer into scoring range. That case is really difficult, if you're a machine who should decide it.
...


I cannot see how this could happen, at some point during the initial block, you will need to move the player over to your side with the blitz or it will be a chainpush. There is no way that you can push an unmoved player on your team without either moving the opponent to your side or doing a chainpush. Unless you have had a quick snap, but then most probably there will be a chainpush anyway.
I don't see how we could alter this statement without adding an undesirable big spectrum of cases where you would not want to use dodge at all.
RC



Joined: Sep 22, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 13:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I always use it so my players dont get crowdpushed. Happens once very other game or so when I play my teams that have dodge.

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clarkin



Joined: Oct 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 13:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I have to say I love the implementation of it in the client right now. I've personally seen two one-turn chainpush attempts foiled by choosing not to dodge and at least one crowdsurf.
gandresch



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 13:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi,

that it true. So let's not speak of oneturns. That was a bad example - sorry for that!
Let's say a dwarf runner is 9 squares away from the endzone. It is turn 8 and the opponent has still one player, that is let's say 5 squares away. But you have a lot of Grab in your team (all dwarves beside runners and slayers can take it as a normal skill) and the "road" between your runner and the player is full of other dwarves, that could block this player.
You now decide, that you have to push the runner one square to score (and perhaps win the final of the FC or something). You block the player with a blitzer on the third block and the result is Push/Pow. The client would now take the Dodge skill of your player and the player keeps standing on his feet and is pushed. But because you know, that there will perhaps in two blocks a situation of a chainpush, you would never use Dodge.

Chainpushes are a good situation to ask for Dodge usage. But with the new skills and especially Grab you can never tell, if the player in this situation is part of chainpush later during the turn.
Let's come back to a oneturn and let's say, the player has been pushed "normally" over the LOS during the first block or blitz. If I know, that Dodge is only used on chainpushes, i can potentially use e.g. Grab in a situation, where there is a Push/Pow result now, to push the player to an unoccupied square and avoid the chainpush, because i know, that the player will use his Dodge skill automatically. My chainpush strategy might be a bit different, but i saved the reroll. Changing your setup a bit enables you to save one reroll by just using Grab and the auto-use function of the client.

I hope, it's clearer now Smile
Lakrillo



Joined: Sep 12, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 14:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Gandresch, i know there are some rare cases where you might want to not use dodge, but to allow optionality for dodge on those would be almost only be solved by turning it back to having dodge optional all the time, which i don't want to do.
In those long events you are talking about, i would actually not use dodge, as i believe that it is a bigger chance that the opponent will roll double-skulls or both down somewhere along the way than that i will actually be surfed. And if he wants to use half his team to push my player 5 steps, the better for me.

One can always come up with situations where there could be options to not use it, but to catch all these situations without hampering the situations where you clearly would not want to use it is almost impossible.
gandresch



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 14:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Lakrillo wrote:
...so i am happy with the current implementation, but if there is room for improvements, we could take a look at that.


Like i said, i can imagine a lot more situations and at least the 5 push situation has already occured to me in a game. But especially the chainpush rule makes it a lot easier to oneturn for especially Skaven, because the vermins can take Grab as a usual skill and having the RR left for other things really increases the probability of a oneturn in the end. So this is a specific kind of advantage for certain teams.

Dodge is a skill, where a lot of those situations can occur. The other skills don't have that much possibility to influence the game. But nearly every skill has the possibility to and the sum is that, what makes me think of different solutions. (the solution now is good for sure, but i can think of better ones regarding my options in the game)

But tell me one thing. If a skill would ask every time (let's just imagine), what would be the problem to have a user setting, that tells you to auto-use the skill and instead of waiting for a popup just proceed and behave like the answer of the coach was a "Yes". You have implemented that specific situation for Dodge already.
Lakrillo



Joined: Sep 12, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 14:48 Reply with quote Back to top

gandresch wrote:

But tell me one thing. If a skill would ask every time (let's just imagine), what would be the problem to have a user setting, that tells you to auto-use the skill and instead of waiting for a popup just proceed and behave like the answer of the coach was a "Yes". You have implemented that specific situation for Dodge already.


First regarding the one-turn. If you use grab to move the player over the line, then you will have the option to go down with dodge.
So the only possible case on the one turn score would be if it was a bad setup where a player blitzed over the line, rolled both arrows so that a push occured, next block is an arrow-pow and the player blocking are having grab and it would not be a chainpush in case he opted to not use grab, that case the dodge will be auto-used.
But seriously, if someone is doing an extra block in that case because they cannot optimize their setup, we cannot calculate for that but rather assume that during an OTS there will be as few blocks as possible and those are either chainpushes or have the potential to move you over the center line.

The reason why we don't have a table where you can set your personal preferences is a design choice, we don't want different players playing by different rules.
gandresch



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 15:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi,

the oneturn:
A Skaven coach can usually live with two pushes and maybe trying to do four pushes to get rid of the gfi. I'll try to write down the blocks that are made one after the other
1. Blitz on a player of the other team. Result is a push (not Push/Pow) and the player is pushed over the LOS. (If there is no Push on the first try, you don't push the player over the LOS, but try with Grab later again, because the player won't use Dodge, if there is no chainpush and the player is not pushed over the LOS)
2. A Vermin blocks the player with Dodge and rolls Push/Pow. He could use a reroll as he wants to chainpush but decides to take Grab instead, pushing the player one more square in his half (no chainpush here because of Grab). The coach sets up for this special situation. So no reroll is used by now.
3. The next Vermin blocks. Again Push/Pow and again he uses Grab. He doesn't push the opposing player over the LOS again, but doesn't use rerolls at all.
4. Finally now he is not allowed to take Push/Pow again but has to roll a real Push result to start the pushing of the Runner.

So the coach is able to instead of rerolling block 2 wait until block 4 with having the reroll left. So he has at least 8 dice on a player, where he usually would have 4 (block 2 with rr, using 2d blocks). This significantly increases the probability of rolling pushes to succeed in the oneturn.
I am sure, that you can make 2 perhaps 3 more blocks in this row, when you have a certain setup for this specific situation.


Quote:
The reason why we don't have a table where you can set your personal preferences is a design choice, we don't want different players playing by different rules.


Using good default values would 80% of the coaches never think of changing their ruleset ever. But those 20% who want to change and know about the changes, can really increase their potential of playing a good game and using all their ability to play and making a good strategy. Especially in the final round of big tournaments, there will be a significant number of coaches, who will and want to change their ruleset in certain situations.
Fela



Joined: Dec 27, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 15:24 Reply with quote Back to top

How would you timeout the decision process for the opponent player? There is NO clear rule about that in the CRP.

Personally, I'd like to see as few interruptions due to popus as possible, so while you may demand the right to have full optionality, your opponent may demand the exact opposite (arguing that the decision has to be INSTANT and thus faster than possible with internet latency). The current client implementation is trying to compromise between those two extreme stances.
zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2011 - 15:25 Reply with quote Back to top

if you push a player into your own half in a LOS situation the opponent gets the chance not to use dodge. Your description is rather confusing though. Specially the use of "over the LOS" and "his".

Whose is "his"
By "over" you mean "along" or "across"?

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