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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005
Location: London, UK

Post   Posted: Sep 24, 2011 - 19:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Most people don't meet enough evil C-POMBers for it to be an issue.

The same reason that I never took pass block in LRB4. (It's not implemented in FFB)

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Ruiner



Joined: Mar 25, 2010

Post   Posted: Sep 24, 2011 - 19:51 Reply with quote Back to top

I take Fend after wrestle on cheap linos if they haven't rolled doubles or stats by then.
Ruiner



Joined: Mar 25, 2010

Post   Posted: Sep 24, 2011 - 19:55 Reply with quote Back to top

In private leagues though, I adapt my team towards the division I am in. If I'm in a killer division then I will spam Fend and Wrestle, if not then I will adjust my team accordingly.
paulhicks



Joined: Jul 19, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 25, 2011 - 02:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Fend + block/ wrestle would be a decent piling on counter if not for the fact that almost all players have better skill choices to take to remain competative unless they choose to only/ mainly play vrs clawpomb. If they choose/ are forced by blackbox to play a wide range of opponents then likely they are going to choose a lot of other skills first before fend. teams with highly skilled linemen who have taken fend are likely suffering their own problems due to high tv anyway.

However if people REALY do want to make pure anticlawpomb teams then woodies look a good option to me.
Oh you have claw? enjoy wasting all that tv vrs my av7 team.
You have piling on? grats i have the easiest skiled linemen in the game and have 3 blodgeing fenders.
wait you concentrated so much on clawpomb that you have no tackle? this could be fun...
Hell these days the woodies are likely to have as many / better placed gaurds than the chaos team.

If only leap/ sneaky git did add extra fouling damage you could really screw em.

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EmperorZombie



Joined: May 17, 2010

Post   Posted: Sep 25, 2011 - 19:05 Reply with quote Back to top

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xufb7_ecw-sabu-rvd-stretcher-match_sport

I like Sabu's chair to rope to moonsault, thats a PO!
cbbakke



Joined: Sep 22, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 25, 2011 - 19:33 Reply with quote Back to top

My issue with fend is that unless you have a ton of it on your team, the killer will just focus on non-fend people and wear out the rest of your team. In a single situation it can be great but a good killer just takes out the others first.
VoodooMike



Joined: Nov 07, 2010

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2011 - 00:37 Reply with quote Back to top

cbbakke wrote:
My issue with fend is that unless you have a ton of it on your team, the killer will just focus on non-fend people and wear out the rest of your team. In a single situation it can be great but a good killer just takes out the others first.

You could always wed your fend player to their killer player. Force their killers to make dodge rolls to go after those less defensible players, or force them to make their hits against the player you've built up to take their hits.

Remember that they had to sacrifice various skill picks to make these killer players - the focus is on hitting, not (typically) mobility.

All that said, you're never going to find a perfect, simple counter to anything that a team is built around. You'll never find a way to make a team that is built around quick touchdowns unable to score. You'll never find a way to make a team built around injuring players unable to injure your players. What you CAN do is minimize their outcomes by incorporating certain skills and strategies.
cbbakke



Joined: Sep 22, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2011 - 08:31 Reply with quote Back to top

I am not sure that engaging that player and giving him a free hit on me is a great plan. they have a 58% chance of removing a player from the pitch if they knock them down.

How the three skills interact takes away from the tactical aspect of the game imo. It is like BB for dummies almost.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2011 - 09:46 Reply with quote Back to top

cbbakke wrote:
I am not sure that engaging that player and giving him a free hit on me is a great plan. they have a 58% chance of removing a player from the pitch if they knock them down.


Not if they have fend which was his point. But I still agree, even MB + Claw alone is enough to smash teams to bits and if you are giving those players free blocks every turn you might well win a one off game but your team will still get smashed to bits and then need to start re-building to reach that high TV again.

Its generally best to just run away from them, I find it really sad in this edition that I see so many games where Sauri, or any other low ag player, forced into making stupid dodges just because you have less chance of hurting your self from falling over than you would getting hit.

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cbbakke



Joined: Sep 22, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2011 - 20:54 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree. I have played since around 95 and this edition has far less trench fighting then previous editions. I believe the main reason is how these skills stack together combined with apoth being effectively regen for one player.

I believe in past editions people were more willing to mix it up so you would end up wtih the same number of CAS through volume of hits. Just my three cents though.
Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004
Location: Sweden

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2011 - 05:13 Reply with quote Back to top

VoodooMike wrote:
What you CAN do is minimize their outcomes by incorporating certain skills and strategies.

And for that Fend is not enough.

Therefore clawpomb is still broken. And no one has any argument against it. The Fend argument is no better than the Block argument: "Clawpomb is not broken at all, just take block, it reduces the chances of getting down by the clawpomber!" But just because both these skills help a bit doesnt mean its enough. And thats what people bringing up the stupid fend argument fails to see.

VoodooMike wrote:
All that said, you're never going to find a perfect, simple counter to anything that a team is built around. You'll never find a way to make a team that is built around quick touchdowns unable to score. You'll never find a way to make a team built around injuring players unable to injure your players.

That is what people bringing up the Fend argument believe. Because otherwise they would bring up Block or Dodge as arguments just as often. But they never do that, they only bring up Fend, because they believe Fend is some kind of miracle solution against clawpomb.


Last edited by Tricktickler on Sep 27, 2011 - 05:29; edited 1 time in total
Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004
Location: Sweden

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2011 - 05:22 Reply with quote Back to top

cbbakke wrote:
I am not sure that engaging that player and giving him a free hit on me is a great plan. they have a 58% chance of removing a player from the pitch if they knock them down.

How the three skills interact takes away from the tactical aspect of the game imo. It is like BB for dummies almost.

Yes, and clawpomb is actually a lot better against av9 than the old Claw and Razor Sharp Claw combo in lrb4 and THAT was broken. The clawpomb combo has so huge impact on the outcome of the game that every other tactic you can do become so tiny in comparsion that it doesnt even count. So every game is now decided by how well you roll your cas rolls on your clawpomb players rather than how skilled you are at the game. But I suppose thats how they wanted the game to be played... reducing it down to who can roll the highest dice on his blitz action.
paulhicks



Joined: Jul 19, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2011 - 10:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Tricktickler wrote:
VoodooMike wrote:
What you CAN do is minimize their outcomes by incorporating certain skills and strategies.

And for that Fend is not enough.

Therefore clawpomb is still broken..


Thats quite a logical leap don't you think? 1 skill doesn't perfectly counter 3 skills so therefor that proves they're broken?
IMO if fend DID completely counter a 3 skill combo it would make fend the most broken skill in bb history.
I see a lot of chaos warriors taking clawpomb as their first 3 skills so id say having a blodge fender marking them is a pretty decent counter. Not perfect of corse but a decent start. An amazon linewoman for example only needs to gain 2 skills and still makes claw worthless due to their av of 7.
Yes there is still no absoute perfect counter but there are options to help.


Tricktickler wrote:
And no one has any argument against it. The Fend argument is no better than the Block argument: "Clawpomb is not broken at all, just take block, it reduces the chances of getting down by the clawpomber!" But just because both these skills help a bit doesnt mean its enough. And thats what people bringing up the stupid fend argument fails to see.


You're argueing with absolute certainty that the people you argue with are being stupidly absolutely certain. Smile
Yes clawpomb as it stands at the moment is overpowered imo but you cant just dismiss ideas to LIMIT its power as totaly worthless. I havn't seen anyone claiming "fend will save us all".. mearly pointing out ways it can help. as you quoted yourself:


VoodooMike wrote:
All that said, you're never going to find a perfect, simple counter to anything that a team is built around. You'll never find a way to make a team that is built around quick touchdowns unable to score. You'll never find a way to make a team built around injuring players unable to injure your players.


Tricktickler wrote:

That is what people bringing up the Fend argument believe. Because otherwise they would bring up Block or Dodge as arguments just as often. But they never do that, they only bring up Fend, because they believe Fend is some kind of miracle solution against clawpomb.


Nope.. don't think anyones done this. Pretty sure most people are bringing up fend ALONG with block and dodge as a partial solution.
Mike pretty much nailed this one.



Personaly i would like to see changes in teh rules (not just with clawpomb but with other aspects too) but agresivly trashing people who are mearly looking for ways to use the current rules to minimise clawpombs effect seems unfair.

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cbbakke



Joined: Sep 22, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 27, 2011 - 22:42 Reply with quote Back to top

I 100% agree that the combo has dumb downed the game and made it into a who rolls better on injury. i think it is a sad thing. In past editions in order for a basher to do their damage they needed to do a lot of good trench fighting. now it is blitz with your killer and hope you roll well.



Tricktickler wrote:
cbbakke wrote:
I am not sure that engaging that player and giving him a free hit on me is a great plan. they have a 58% chance of removing a player from the pitch if they knock them down.

How the three skills interact takes away from the tactical aspect of the game imo. It is like BB for dummies almost.

Yes, and clawpomb is actually a lot better against av9 than the old Claw and Razor Sharp Claw combo in lrb4 and THAT was broken. The clawpomb combo has so huge impact on the outcome of the game that every other tactic you can do become so tiny in comparsion that it doesnt even count. So every game is now decided by how well you roll your cas rolls on your clawpomb players rather than how skilled you are at the game. But I suppose thats how they wanted the game to be played... reducing it down to who can roll the highest dice on his blitz action.
Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004
Location: Sweden

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2011 - 01:49 Reply with quote Back to top

paulhicks wrote:
Thats quite a logical leap don't you think?

True. What I meant was "therefore there is still no reason to think clawpomb is balanced".

paulhicks wrote:
You're argueing with absolute certainty that the people you argue with are being stupidly absolutely certain. Smile

I neved used the word absolute certain. However I do think a lot of people are overconfident in the fend argument.

paulhicks wrote:
Yes clawpomb as it stands at the moment is overpowered imo but you cant just dismiss ideas to LIMIT its power as totaly worthless.

I havent dismissed any idea to limit its power as worthless. What I did was agreeing with VoodooMike that Fend helps a bit against clawpomb, but I also said it doesnt mean clawpomb isnt broken.

paulhicks wrote:
Nope.. don't think anyones done this. Pretty sure most people are bringing up fend ALONG with block and dodge as a partial solution.

Ive seen many people argue like this: "no, clawpomb is not overpowered since you can counter it with Fend". If they do weigh in everything else like you said then why do they always point only at Fend without mentioning the rest? Even if it was true that clawpomb was balanced when weighing in everything, dont you agree that such an incomplete argument as only mentioning Fend is pretty unconvincing? Okay if Fend had a strong effect against the problems with clawpomb, then I could understand why they only mentioned it for simplicity. But since fend has such a small effect I cant understand why they only mention it and nothing else. Its like they think fend is the big solution for the problems with clawpomb...

paulhicks wrote:
Personaly i would like to see changes in teh rules (not just with clawpomb but with other aspects too) but agresivly trashing people who are mearly looking for ways to use the current rules to minimise clawpombs effect seems unfair.

And that I havent done.
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