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Irgy



Joined: Feb 21, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 02, 2012 - 23:39 Reply with quote Back to top

The purpose of this site is essentially to keep track of team rosters. In a ressurection tournament, keeping track of team rosters is almost entirely superfluous. So you don't really need fumbbl to do it. What you need is just an ffb client that runs independently. The old (Skjunkie's) client can do it already, but it's LRB4.0. To me, it's kind of odd that the new one can't really.
Kalimar



Joined: Sep 22, 2006

Post   Posted: Jun 03, 2012 - 10:02 Reply with quote Back to top

that is because you compare apples and oranges here. the old client was a standalone peer2peer application that happened to interact with the site a little. the new client is a client-server application that is served via the site (no install) and depends on fumbbl to run.

ffb does NOT care about team progression or if a player that has died in the game is available for the next one. so sadly i can't do anything about this request - it's a site thing. would defintely think this something worth to have, though...
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Jun 03, 2012 - 10:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Irgy wrote:
The purpose of this site is essentially to keep track of team rosters. In a ressurection tournament, keeping track of team rosters is almost entirely superfluous. So you don't really need fumbbl to do it. What you need is just an ffb client that runs independently. The old (Skjunkie's) client can do it already, but it's LRB4.0. To me, it's kind of odd that the new one can't really.


applause for thinking that things are odd when you have absolutely no idea of how they work...

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jun 03, 2012 - 11:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Also irgy the non progression ie injuries, spp etc not carrying over to the next game is already implemented by christer. We just need an option for customising teams added to make them work properly.

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RedDevilCG



Joined: Jan 09, 2010

Post   Posted: Jun 03, 2012 - 23:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I suppose a really chipper mod could just answer swarms of emails to give skills to teams in L resurrection leagues..
Irgy



Joined: Feb 21, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 04, 2012 - 02:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Kalimar wrote:
that is because you compare apples and oranges here. the old client was a standalone peer2peer application that happened to interact with the site a little. the new client is a client-server application that is served via the site (no install) and depends on fumbbl to run.

ffb does NOT care about team progression or if a player that has died in the game is available for the next one. so sadly i can't do anything about this request - it's a site thing. would defintely think this something worth to have, though...
pythrr wrote:
applause for thinking that things are odd when you have absolutely no idea of how they work...


Apologies to Kalimar and the finger to Pythrr, I was actually already entirely aware of the basics of how the ffb client works. I just also consider it odd. The client-server thing is an odd way of going about it in the first place, although also the best way so that's certainly not a criticism. Even so, if I was coding it, I would have created a standalone dummy-server that I could simply feed hand-crafted rosters to, for testing purposes if nothing else. That's not a criticism of Kalimar either, it's just how I personally would have done it, which in turn means I consider it odd that it doesn't exist. I realise it's probably more work than it's worth just for testing now, but I have no idea how you managed to get this whole thing off the ground to start with without some way of testing it locally.

My point is, depending on just how tightly tied to specifically fumbbl.com the client is, it should be no more work to create a standalone server than to modify fumbbl with a bunch of new options. If I had access to the source code and wanted to run a resurrection league I would consider write one myself rather than waiting for already busy people to do something for me.
PsyPhiGrad



Joined: Dec 22, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 04, 2012 - 02:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Irgy wrote:

My point is, depending on just how tightly tied to specifically fumbbl.com the client is, it should be no more work to create a standalone server than to modify fumbbl with a bunch of new options. If I had access to the source code and wanted to run a resurrection league I would consider write one myself rather than waiting for already busy people to do something for me.


I like your way of thinking. I'd actually consider it as a summer coding project. And it would get me away from just playing silly stunty games in Ranked while I hope, pray and wait for League to get some optional rules implemented that make playing a more "serious" form of Blood Bowl more enjoyable.

So, would it be possible to download this project to committed volunteers in the community?
Hitonagashi



Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Post   Posted: Jun 04, 2012 - 03:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Irgy wrote:
Kalimar wrote:
that is because you compare apples and oranges here. the old client was a standalone peer2peer application that happened to interact with the site a little. the new client is a client-server application that is served via the site (no install) and depends on fumbbl to run.

ffb does NOT care about team progression or if a player that has died in the game is available for the next one. so sadly i can't do anything about this request - it's a site thing. would defintely think this something worth to have, though...
pythrr wrote:
applause for thinking that things are odd when you have absolutely no idea of how they work...


Apologies to Kalimar and the finger to Pythrr, I was actually already entirely aware of the basics of how the ffb client works. I just also consider it odd. The client-server thing is an odd way of going about it in the first place, although also the best way so that's certainly not a criticism. Even so, if I was coding it, I would have created a standalone dummy-server that I could simply feed hand-crafted rosters to, for testing purposes if nothing else. That's not a criticism of Kalimar either, it's just how I personally would have done it, which in turn means I consider it odd that it doesn't exist. I realise it's probably more work than it's worth just for testing now, but I have no idea how you managed to get this whole thing off the ground to start with without some way of testing it locally.

My point is, depending on just how tightly tied to specifically fumbbl.com the client is, it should be no more work to create a standalone server than to modify fumbbl with a bunch of new options. If I had access to the source code and wanted to run a resurrection league I would consider write one myself rather than waiting for already busy people to do something for me.


No.

You are still thinking of the LRB 4 peer to peer model.

It's a client/server model. As far as I know, and whenever I write those types of apps, 99% of the important stuff is done on the server. The client is merely a graphical channel that does pretty button clicks and animations.

To me, that's a great way of going about it, primarily because you remove basically all the hacking vectors in one shot. There's no way of duplicating the dice rolls, predicting them etc, as they are all generated by the server and posted to you. Since *everything* important is held by the server, it's possible to preserve state, and not have the horrible disconnect problems we had with Skijunkies.

With regard to opensourcing it, this has come up before. This is not a new issue, Kalimar is keeping it closed source for his own reasons (I believe to do with the fact that this is a fun project for him to program, and project management is his day job, not what he wants to come home to), and I have nothing but respect for the huge amount of work he's put into it. If you want an open source client, write one yourself.
Irgy



Joined: Feb 21, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 04, 2012 - 04:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Hitonagashi wrote:
No.

You are still thinking of the LRB 4 peer to peer model.

It's a client/server model. As far as I know, and whenever I write those types of apps, 99% of the important stuff is done on the server. The client is merely a graphical channel that does pretty button clicks and animations.


No, I'm not. The point is that somewhere there's an interface between the ffb software and the rest of the website (i.e. the team database). The additional code would simply need to implement/imitate that interface. Given that a similar interface existed for the LRB4.0 client, I can't imagine why it would have been rewritten into something incomprehensibly complex since then. It might not be as simple as "roster in, roster out", and there might be some hard-coded "fumbbl.com"s in there, but that doesn't make it impossible.

Whether that interface is the same as the client/server interface or within the server code is beside the point.

Anyway from what I can tell fumbbl.com is providing the dice, but the game mechanics, which is the core of it, are still run locally. I could be wrong though. Obviously having not seen the code I can't really know exactly what would need to be done, but I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that it might not be all that difficult if you went about it the right way.

I can't speak for Kalimar, but letting a single person add an extension doesn't have to mean open-sourcing the whole thing.

I do conceed Garion's point though. If most of the work has been done already on the "do it on fumbbl" approach, and other value could possibly be got out of the remaining work, then that way might still be better.
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