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Poll
Ignoring Fluff reasons - Do you think CDs should have been give mutation access?
Yes
37%
 37%  [ 60 ]
No
36%
 36%  [ 59 ]
Pie!
11%
 11%  [ 18 ]
I'm just happy clicking something
15%
 15%  [ 25 ]
Total Votes : 162


dode74



Joined: Aug 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 14:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
CD did not have a bad win/loss ratio in lrb5 as I recall. Maybe a big guy getting mutations on doubles would be enough IF they needed an increase in power.
They had M access on doubles in LRB5. They didn't in LRB4. The huge changes between 4 and 5 make it very difficult to say "well they'd have been fine without it", as what we really need is data under LRB5/CRP conditions for CDs with no M access to be able to say that. What we do have though is plenty of LRB5/CRP data for CDs with M access on doubles which shows that they are inside the required 45-55% bracket both from plasmoid's league data and from [B ] data.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 14:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Random Mutations FTW
MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 14:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Mattius wrote:
I would contend that Claw is a problem if it is obtained without doubles. I don't think 20k is a fair price for claw. 30k is at a push. If everyone had access to claw, everyone would take it(its that good), but only a few teams have this option, the only team id say that is borderline weak enough to deserve it so cheaply is nurgle.

The fluff reasons for mutations are pretty poor if you ask me.

The lets stop dwarfs and orcs getting to powerful reasons for easy access to claw is a weak reason(change rosters instead).

But to answer the apparent question if CDs should have M access, for game balance, probably not. But if PO is fixed and other teams were improved, then i don't see why chd would be op with M's.


Let's keep in mind that in the majority of cases Mighty Blow is vastly superior to Claw, so starting down the line of thought that Claw is too cheap must mean Mighty Blow is also (if not even more so) too cheap. Given that Guard as a single skill probably is better than Mighty Blow, does this mean Guard is also too cheap?
Mattius



Joined: Sep 03, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 15:00 Reply with quote Back to top

RedFish wrote:
Mattius wrote:
I would contend that Claw is a problem if it is obtained without doubles. I don't think 20k is a fair price for claw. 30k is at a push. If everyone had access to claw, everyone would take it(its that good), but only a few teams have this option, the only team id say that is borderline weak enough to deserve it so cheaply is nurgle.

The fluff reasons for mutations are pretty poor if you ask me.

The lets stop dwarfs and orcs getting to powerful reasons for easy access to claw is a weak reason(change rosters instead).

But to answer the apparent question if CDs should have M access, for game balance, probably not. But if PO is fixed and other teams were improved, then i don't see why chd would be op with M's.


Let's keep in mind that in the majority of cases Mighty Blow is vastly superior to Claw, so starting down the line of thought that Claw is too cheap must mean Mighty Blow is also (if not even more so) too cheap. Given that Guard as a single skill probably is better than Mighty Blow, does this mean Guard is also too cheap?


Difference is everyone has access to mb and guard, altho funny enough not quite as much access to mb/ guard as the teams that also have M access. The ability to stack these skills enhances them ten fold, i don't think asking for claw to be 10k more and harder to get is asking for much.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 15:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Cough ... Traits Wink
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 15:12 Reply with quote Back to top

How about just don't allow taking both claw & PO on the same player.

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Mattius



Joined: Sep 03, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 15:21 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
How about just don't allow taking both claw & PO on the same player.


One thing i'd like to see is stopping claw and mb working together. PO just needs fixing, i think that's the one things that there is a consensus about on fumbbl. If this was done, i would say that orcs need a roster nerf, although i have always thought this Very Happy Fix khemri, ogre, humans and give the t3 teams some bonus's and suddenly we could see 10 t1 teams instead of what we have right now.

Course nothing will be done anytime soon, but its nice to get these rants of our chests Embarassed
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 15:28 Reply with quote Back to top

10 Tier 1 teams Shocked Shudder please god no.
dode74



Joined: Aug 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 15:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Mattius wrote:
One thing i'd like to see is stopping claw and mb working together.
Then give everyone AV8.
juck101



Joined: Nov 16, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 17:09 Reply with quote Back to top

dode74 wrote:
They had M access on doubles in LRB5. They didn't in LRB4. The huge changes between 4 and 5 make it very difficult

Hi,
I think the test enrivonement rules (vault) was pre lrb5 effectivly. So we tested before without this im 90% sure as I recall being shocked CD had mutations when I saw that rule. I really cant find much left of the GW forum so only people with good memory & high forum post & some interest could confirm that for me.
juck101



Joined: Nov 16, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 17:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
JimmyFantastic wrote:
To get totally back on topic I think the BBRC did the right thing.
Clearly they didn't realise ClawPomb is way OP in perpetual matchmaking so they thought CD's needed a boost after the DP nerf and losing their Big Guy.


Thank you

Yup I get that, and it the first reasonable reason I have heard.

I'm just not sure they needed that boost. Do you still think they would need claw if the cpomb combo wasn't such a nightmare in the hands of chaos and nurgle?


This is about right but claw was deamed a sensible S skill to help bash high armour teams. Claw also boosted chaos against other bashers and was seen ok in terms of overall win loss. I think we did have fears if it was an easy single pick but overall the numbers did not suggest a problem.

Maybe plasmoid stats had this sort of thing on them but frankly after the BBRC got shreaded its pretty academic. What stats we had in vault were used and sensible thought was applied. I dont think suggesting a thread without playtest data is that useful so sadly I know this ends without any outcome either way.

IanWilliams I think put up a very good kill stack change to acomodate the 3 kill skills as a combo. Sadly I dont even know where that link is. I hope the older community that love this game still do.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 17:23 Reply with quote Back to top

I know where it is. You can use that rule in the leagues on this site. Though feedback has been limited so far.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 17:23 Reply with quote Back to top

dode74 wrote:
Mattius wrote:
One thing i'd like to see is stopping claw and mb working together.
Then give everyone AV8.


And everyone st 3 and move 6 and ag 3....
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 17:53 Reply with quote Back to top

JimmyFantastic wrote:
they thought CD's needed a boost after the DP nerf and losing their Big Guy.


Well the CD's did not lose their Big Guy...Coaches elect to "shelf" their big guy because they are TV min/max whimps. Effective but still whimps.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 18:00 Reply with quote Back to top

They did lose a good one for a stinker of a big guy though. Even without TV I still never took Minotaurs back in the day, they just suck imo. But each to their own Very Happy
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