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Poll
Ignoring Fluff reasons - Do you think CDs should have been give mutation access?
Yes
37%
 37%  [ 60 ]
No
36%
 36%  [ 59 ]
Pie!
11%
 11%  [ 18 ]
I'm just happy clicking something
15%
 15%  [ 25 ]
Total Votes : 162


koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 00:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Let me know if you can get through to these pages and if anything looks screwy. Mirror games are appearing twice I know.

http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bb/stats/stats.html

http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bb/stats/racevsrace.html

I'm pretty sure that fouls are in.

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dode74



Joined: Aug 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 01:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Great stuff, Koadah.
Overhamsteren



Joined: May 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 02:23 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
I'm pretty sure that fouls are in.


Khemri stats look like it. Razz


So deadly fouling was easy to get and made the game overall more bloody in LRB4 but in 2000+TV the new clawplomb is still deadlier than the old high TV bashers.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 09:28 Reply with quote Back to top

It doesnt really suprise me tbh. Fouling was a great tool that everyone could have and take advantage of it caused a lot of damage at all TR ranges. Also the old khemri were really powerful as a starter race against a lof of teams and Ogres could be pretty powerful too. They may not have been the greatest at winning but they certainly smashed teams up. I would have thought the bash gap would have been greater at a high TV in this rule set though because of CPOMB and the nerf to the apoth. So that is something of a suprise.

But it is a real shame that the ability to bash to level of LRB4 was removed from everyone excluding the CPOMB races. It just makes the issues with that combo even more apparent.

Also Overhamsteren I did play in leagues but i quit them all because after a few seasons I was already seeing too much that I don't like about this rule set in leagues too. BTW I am not talking about CPOMB, despite what you think that isn't my biggest issue with the rules. Although i do think it is too powerful Wink . Similarly this thread wasn't about CPOMB though it inevitably got dragged that way. I just wanted to know how people felt on the whole about Chaos Dwarves getting access to Claw, and that was all.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 09:37 Reply with quote Back to top

lies Wink

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 10:57 Reply with quote Back to top

pythrr wrote:
lies Wink


Damn lies!

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freak_in_a_frock



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 11:07 Reply with quote Back to top

and statistics?
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 11:28 Reply with quote Back to top

sorry i dont get you? Whats lies and the statistics are on this page and last?
JimmyFantastic



Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 12:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Lies that you didn't want to make it about clawpomb.
I believe that you didn't, however the argument against claw is because of clawpomb not claw, so it was inevitable.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 12:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Ah yeah, it was inevitable. But yeah i just wanted to see what people thought specifically about CDs while accepting CPOMB is the way it is for other races and your self and Malmir have provided the best responses to this question so far and i thank you for that Wink
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 12:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
sorry i dont get you? Whats lies and the statistics are on this page and last?


"Lies, damned lies, and statistics".

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 12:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Edit: ah right sorry I get you lol It's hard to follow these things when looking at a tiny phone screen.
Embarassed
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 12:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
It doesnt really suprise me tbh. Fouling was a great tool that everyone could have and take advantage of it caused a lot of damage at all TR ranges. Also the old khemri were really powerful as a starter race against a lof of teams and Ogres could be pretty powerful too.


Yeah. It was so great that people couldn't take it and the old Box died.

Garion wrote:
I would have thought the bash gap would have been greater at a high TV in this rule set though because of CPOMB and the nerf to the apoth. So that is something of a suprise.


Eh? The gap looks pretty big at 2000+. Also the data does not have info on KOs that prob win more matches than actual cas.

Even so at 2000-2200 chaos are still only 55.58% and Nurgle 51.58%


Even without looking at the data I didn't believe in your "won't play above 1600". At 1600-2000 C-POMBers do damage but are not special when it comes to winning.

I'd say that you are worse off at 1300-1500 due to the min/max bushwhackers. Wink

Garion wrote:

But it is a real shame that the ability to bash to level of LRB4 was removed from everyone excluding the CPOMB races. It just makes the issues with that combo even more apparent.


For the Box I don't have a problem with reducing the carnage at low TV and increasing it at high. Most teams get some access to POMB.

And it may well be that a handful of good/prolific coaches are skewing the data.
Maybe I'll add an option to strip out RandomOracle. Wink

I think that the plan was to not have monsters maintaining 2300+

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juck101



Joined: Nov 16, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 14:23 Reply with quote Back to top

no.

CD did not have a bad win/loss ratio in lrb5 as I recall. Maybe a big guy getting mutations on doubles would be enough IF they needed an increase in power.

I did play in a playtest league in vault rules but we did not have any mega big cd teams in the leagues we had. I recall PO being better to keep attrition as ageing was removed. Cdwarf in fairness could gain a lot with mb and PO so its not like we had left CD without any power. Shame my group missed that opportunity to test with mutations.

Maybe the shame was not suggesting +av did something to effect claw. Guess claw is strong and needed some counter which might be an error in playtesting as its more common. Maybe some counter or change to a S skill like thick skull would compensate more.

Still the majors are NOT the only bb games in a perpetual league so I can see arguments with the more hardcore fumbblers and more casual players. Most of the balance issues you perceive are at the higher end of the scale. Maybe people forgot to use DP as claw is more powerful?

Is claw actually a problem or is POMB? If that is also part of this argument the enhanced PO is the issue which is available to orc,chaos,cd,dwarf etc

I dont want to troll so I won't follow this thread but sadly fumbbl players in the majority hated the 'potential' changes to rules. I think an win ratio increase to chaos was needed by offering claw. Most other races did not need a boost. Chaos only excell at high ratings. ( I argue but think is backed up with numbers) Fumbblers who play higher ratings more than most ( I argue) didn't test the rules. Ergo if this was missed in testing in the PPBBL environment you have to remember the "League" part of the acronym which also does not apply to fumbbl and then we all can move on as its not entirely the same environment.
Mattius



Joined: Sep 03, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2012 - 14:46 Reply with quote Back to top

I would contend that Claw is a problem if it is obtained without doubles. I don't think 20k is a fair price for claw. 30k is at a push. If everyone had access to claw, everyone would take it(its that good), but only a few teams have this option, the only team id say that is borderline weak enough to deserve it so cheaply is nurgle.

The fluff reasons for mutations are pretty poor if you ask me.

The lets stop dwarfs and orcs getting to powerful reasons for easy access to claw is a weak reason(change rosters instead).

But to answer the apparent question if CDs should have M access, for game balance, probably not. But if PO is fixed and other teams were improved, then i don't see why chd would be op with M's.
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