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Vesikannu



Joined: Mar 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 22, 2012 - 06:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
hmm. I forget that titchy gives +1 dodge; I wanted the red caps to not have tackle zones (and yes I'm aware that doesn't affect stunties, but lots of teams have the rare guy who isn't stunty). I can't think of a simple way around that, so I'll drop titchy.

Give them AG 2. Add Extra Arms if you want them to handle the ball.
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 25, 2012 - 22:58 Reply with quote Back to top

For a basic player this might be good:

0-16 Red Cap 6 1 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Titchy, Sneaky Git, A (GSP) 40k

Make your team "schtick" be Fouling!
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2012 - 17:12 Reply with quote Back to top

And take out right stuff? But I loves the sound soooo much! However, that could work, if I wasn't set on having S access lino's with Str 1.

Could you live with it if it was 6/1/3/7, Dodge, Stunty, Sneaky Git, Titchy, S (GAP) 40k?
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2012 - 17:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
if I wasn't set on having S access lino's with Str 1.
Why? S access just means that evey players skills will be Guard, MB, and Piling On. What else is even useful? Break Tackle? No. Multiblock? No. Maybe Thick Skull. But for the most part, St 1 and S access pretty much dictates what skills will be taken on all players. I don't think limiting a coaches options that much is a good idea for a team.

Rather I think you could just make the Red Caps a little more Robust at St 2 (even though still Titchy) to represent their tiny muscular bodies) although they would need a cost increase.

I think you've got a pretty good base idea here with the Red Caps and Gargoyles, although I'm not quite sold on the Night Masks and the Roper.

Some ideas to think on:
0-4 Gargoyle 5/4/3/9 Stand Firm, Take Root, Thick Skull S GAP, 100k

With Take Root being arguably the worst negatrait in the game, You can make the Gargoyles pretty good, and basically be the teams BGs (but 0-4).

0-16 Red Cap 5/2/3/7 Dodge, Sneaky Git, Stunty, Titchy A SAP, 50k

This makes them little mean spirited (Git) musclebound (St 2 but Titchy) punks!

You'd still need another Non BG position, but I'm not sold on the Night Masks as that position..

Just thinking..

At least Red Caps sound like something that should be in Stunty.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 04:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Regarding skills: Consider A access players.

How many people do you know that ever bother doing anything except sidestep/diving tackle, with maybe someone who gets some stats going for sure feet/sprint for one turning? Arguably, that's only 2 'real' useful skills, which is even less than the 3 you listed for S access. So no, I don't really think S access limits a coaches options any more than A access does.

More importantly: EVERY OTHER TEAM in stunty has A access lino's. This means that ALL teams you play or play against will be taking sidestep/diving tackle. By giving my lino's S access, then the team, as a whole, actually feels different when it skills up. And by not granting G access, the skills aren't actually better than A access skills. So yes, I DO believe that granting S access not only offers as many options to the team as A access does, it offers MORE options to Stunty Leeg overall, which is at least as important (in my eyes) when making a team for Stunty as anything specific to the team.

The 1 S is to make sure that a Stunty team with access to Guard and MB doesn't become too powerful in the bash wars with other teams. It still makes them strong, but considering Skyre Slaves example, and the loss of options like sidestep/diving tackle, I don't think S access will be overall too strong.

The night masks I'm not entirely sold on - I just wanted a runner style position, so I'd definitely be willing to look at other options there.

The ropers I love - but I'd be willing to continue to tweak, as I have already. However let us consider my thought process:

Most Stunty teams have 0-2 (0-3 if no secondary bash positional as mentioned below) big guys. These big guys are Str 6 if the lino's are S 1, and S 5 if the lino's are S 2. The big guys then have some form of negatrait + loner, or just take root if no loner (note that Ropers have both take root AND loner, specifically because S6 tentacles are awesome in stunty). The team then has a second positional at 0-2, which has G access for the team - usually these are either S2 with lots of skills or particularly good skills (like chainsaw), or they are S3 with some kind of drawback (like no hands). Alternatively some teams have super fast big guys (like Raptors) with lots of skills, but only S3. The team then has one more ball carrier type positional, which is balanced around the rest of the team (if weak big guys, then perhaps hynogaze, if strong big guys then maybe only 0-1 with basic skills), and then there are the linos. My team instead takes S3, and Bombardier, but doesn't take the G access.

So I understand why you might be tempted by making 0-4 Gargoyles - but a) we lose the variety of 2 positionals doing the bashing (which I would be loath to do since I love variety) and b) to balance vs teams with 2 S5 big guys and 2 S3 G access guys, we either make Gargoyles have G access, which is not what I want at all, or we make them S4 or S5 (considering my lino's are S1). Consdering you want them to have Take Root, I could see making them S4 and G, or S5, both of which (for me!) is FAR FAR too strong for a 0-4 positional. So I don't like this train of thought, from a balance point of view, at all.

Further most stunty teams have something that most teams don't have - chainsaws, or hyno gaze, or bombardier, or tons of TTM, or what have you. This team does not have any of that, although arguably you could say my Ropers with catching abilities qualify, but I don't think that would actually change anything in real play, so I would argue against it. Gargoyles as you have them wouldn't have it, so that would indicate my runner positional should have something fantastic like hyno gaze; but that doesn't mesh with any of the fluff I currently have for the team, whereas bombardier on my gargoyles (and only S3) both isn't too strong, and is reasonably balanced around the teams that already exist.

Finally, my idea is: Find fluff - throw down skills to match fluff. Then look other teams to balance them. And remember, we don't want too weak either. (Squigs are just TOO unreliable to be competitive, and really should be balanced around the other teams more, and Strigoyans have great lino's and a great big guy.. but their positionals are far too weak for the drawbacks they bring, ending up with a team that overall is only barely better than Squigs, to the point where I would never play either team if I wanted a winning ratio, and if a team is that weak, I think a mistake has been made.)

What this means is that I am trying to explore options that are DIFFERENT to what we have, much like the horrors; and while some things seem crazy on paper (catch/extra arms on a big guy (after my change to agi 1)! interceptions galore and S6 partial ball carrier - or, S access lino's - crazy powerful bash fest! - neither is really going to occur in most games), in real play, I really don't think they'll be all that good, just as the horrors end up not being the overpowered powerhouses they seem on paper. However, I could definitely still have the balance wrong, which is why I've been tweaking down ever since I presented the idea; but I'm still trying to balance it around what teams are already out there, and end up with different options than what we have already.

Options I definitely want to hold: S access Str 1 linos. S6 tentacles + extra arms + catch big guys. Bombardier + Take Root + Big Tough Gargoyles. A runner type positional of some kind.
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 04:45 Reply with quote Back to top

I understand wanting something different, but St access even with St 1 can really get out of hand once the team begins to develop (I went through much of this before when working on my Bray Herd roster). Sure at low tv with few skills, A access and S access don't seem very different, but once the skills begin to come, they diverge quickly. SS/DT can be very good, but compare that with MB/PO! It's not even close! Yes St 1 means you have to arrange your blocks better, but you're still going to be removing stunties at an absurd pace. That's where the balance issues become too much.

Gargoyles as Awesome players with a HUGE drawback (Take Root) seems very interesting and new, and fits Gargoyle fluff pretty well. Sort of like a Treeman who isn't as strong, but can really move (when they don't STOP moving). I don't get the Gargoyles spitting fireballs, I don't think flows from the fluff. I also think that Bombardier is getting overused (seems like every roster suggested has it) that it doesn't really bring anything new.

The Roper (which I hadn't really addressed) seems out of place. Isn't it primarily D&D not GW cannon? Although that's not a reason to completely dismiss it, I just think they take a backseat to what is more cool on the team (Red Caps and Gargoyles). If it were more of a "Hangman tree" it might fit with the team's somewhat "anti-fairy" theme.. (at least based on this and this)
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 05:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Gotta say, all the discussion I read in your own thread seemed to indicate that people didn't mind S1 linos with S access - it was S2 with S access that was the issue. So I still don't think that should be a problem. Further, the very first Gargoyles I ever read about were magical creations of a wizard that were guards to his castle; but instead of hunting things down and physically attacking them, they spat balls of lightnig, roasted the target, and then, when they felt like it, went over and ate the remains.

Further: Remember the fluff! The ropers and gargoyles, are living creatures created by a mad dark elf wizard - they might be alive, but their first purpose is to be part of the architecture of the castle, and detain or kill intruders while still keeping the impressive appearance of the castle in order to let the dark elf wizard show off to his female dark elf friends. The red caps run around and clean up all the messes, including beating up intruders too small to pose a threat, like large rats or small people; they also go out into the countryside and acquire things for the dark elf wizard. No finesse needed - point a large pointy object at their target, and beat it until it gives into the red cap. The red caps don't (generally, with the exception of individuals like night masks) need to learn agile type skills because no one dares fight against the dark elf wizard, or his minions. (Dodge of course is learned from creation due to infighting between the red caps)
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 27, 2012 - 06:42 Reply with quote Back to top

That was before PO became crazy good..

Anyway, I offered some suggestions, I just don't think we're going to agree. Good luck with them.
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