Azure
Joined: Jan 30, 2007
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 Posted:
Apr 25, 2012 - 20:18 |
 
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Wheel of Chaos (Current B major):
3 Teams have won their qualifiers:
Nurgle
Nurgle
Chaos Pact
-- All three have clawpomb.
The remaining 5 teams will be between the following:
Dwarf or CD
Skaven or DE
Skaven or Elf
Dwarf or WE
Vampire or Chaos
Already 3 clawpomb bashers in the final 8...going to be atleast 1 more bash team...a maximum of three agility teams.
Not seeing where your data is coming from. |
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SvenS
Joined: Jul 07, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2012 - 20:23 |
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| Hitonagashi wrote: | | licker wrote: | Now now...
The issue isn't +AG elfs in R or B. The issue (apparently) is +AG elfs in a tournament!
Because the longevity of +AG elfs isn't that great, but if you only need them for a few games, well, then you may have something which is OP.
OP short term, balanced long term, as many Leagues can probably attest to.
The counter to +AG elfs isn't tackle +MB either, the counter is for the elfs to roll enough 1s to not get away with all their nonsense. If it's game by game the elves have the advantage. If it's who winds up at the top after 10+ games it's not so extreme anymore. |
Naw.
The counters (in tournaments):
1) Blodge + Sure hands + ST 3 - Maximise the chance of the -2d failing
2) Guard - If the elves get a 1d or 2d, wrestle and a reroll gives them 50% chance of getting it free, then you are probably stuffed. Guard means it's a halfdice, and combined with blodge/sure hands, makes you relatively safe against woodies.
3) Diving Tackle/Tackle. It slows them down, and the ability to put blodgers down is a necessity.
4) Careful positional play. I see too many coaches that facing elves just chuck everything forward to try and trap and kill the elves, then call dice when the elves dance past their lines and sack a carrier. You can't rush, have to play it slowly and carefully and not make mistakes, or you'll get punished.
5) Sidestep/Stand Firm - Again, very underrated skills...but all the elves barring Dark Elves have a *very* strong 1 turn attack. If you can put 3 sidestep/3 stand firm on the LOS, that makes it a hell of a lot harder.
The real issue in tournaments is that skills that counter elves aren't as useful against bash, and visa versa. If you want to make a team that stuffs elves, it's relatively easy, but making a team that can beat both elves and bash is the true challenge...and given the "popularity" of certain combos, too many coaches just skill to play against bash, and ignore the possibility that they might have to play elves. |
Well put Hito |
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IL-S
SL |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2012 - 20:29 |
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| Hitonagashi wrote: | | ..and given the "popularity" of certain combos, too many coaches just skill to play against bash, and ignore the possibility that they might have to play elves. |
There is the thesis of OP in a nutshell.
CRP enchanced the bash side of the game big time with the "dreaded combo". Now coaches are paranoid to all get out of it. Thus they are fixated on "the Combo" and because of that the elfs are getting off easy, in the big picture.
CRP also introduced some new rules that universally most coaches agree are good. No more ageing and Journeymen.
Those two things right there make running elf teams easier from a team managment stand point. It also increased the chances of getting multiple +STAT elfs on one team. No more ageing means no more retiring of aged players in fear of Virus.
The Divs also play a role. Ranked you can still play the picker elf game and in Box you are not forced to activate your high TV elf team anymore. Thus you can to a certain extent "shield" them for a tourney. Box more so than Ranked also forces other teams to build to face bash and have a fatalistic approach when you run across elf teams. The elf team might beat you but will not decimate your team.
This does help elfs indirectly because of the CRP rules.
And yes this discussion is about tournaments. Majors, minors etc....Day to day Blood Bowl who cares. |
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Comish of the:  |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2012 - 20:49 |
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Hito-
What you say is true, BUT it still relies on the elves throwing 1s (mostly). Just packing in tackle and MB (as suggested elsewhere) may knock a few out, but to actually WIN you need them fail, far far more than you need your own side to succeed.
Of course this advantage for the +AG elves is potentially short lived, as all it takes is a perm on their +AG players and they are likely stuffed for their next matches. Unless you get that +AG guy out early in your match.
You can play careful, you can have some non-bash skills, but ultimately, you're still at the mercy of the AG5 wrackle (SB too sometimes) leaper landing that -2db and the bounce going where the AG6 NOS can grab it and pass it out.
It's really not practical to *stop* those chances completely. Unless... the elves roll a few 1s and wind up with their position so stuffed that you can start knocking them off the pitch en mass. |
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Hitonagashi
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2012 - 22:47 |
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The elven advantage is that they can score anywhere and capitalise on a loose ball instantly.
The elven disadvantage is that it's a pig to free the ball.
If you use a double layered cage against it, and assuming they can even leap in, the best possibility for the AG5/AG 6 combo (which itself is ridiculous TV) is:
2+ leap, halfdicewithr (equivalent to a 4+ dodge when you factor the RR), 2+ leap, 3+ pickup (because in a cage, odds are it'll land in 2 tz), 3+ dodge(with rr), 2+ pass.
If I've got my maths right (and there's no guarantee I have!), I make that a 12% chance of success.
So, 90% of the time, he faceplants, and you get to bash his entire team (because, if you move too many players, you can't capitalise on a ball spill, and making moves/blocks when you need your reroll for a combo is super risky).
It's not just "a few 1s". The leap'n'hope strategy is similar to the clawbomb, press PO and hope strategy.
When you watch awesome elf players like Purplegoo, Dolls, Malmir, it's all about position.
You beat elves by denying them the positional game. It's why basher/elf games are so fascinating, because the casualties are just a subtext to controlling the position and denying the space. |
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http://www.calculateyour.tv - an easy way to work out specific team builds.
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2012 - 23:34 |
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It is true that "the combo" makes coaches pick defensive skills instead of anti-elf skills.
While I agree that ageing would bag developed elfs, I still hated it. "The combo" still has a fair chance of landing injuries on your über-elf.
I know it doesn't matter much here, but Tom and Ian have agreed on a mini nerf to both claw and piling on, that might make for good house rules somewhere not here.
Finally, I do think Dump-Off (on a thrower) has been strangely forgotten. It was pretty good back in the day at stopping the leaping ball thief. Still is.
Cheers
Martin |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2012 - 23:54 |
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But mah Chaos Thrower can't GET dump-off! |
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nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2012 - 23:57 |
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ok, all in all there is merit on this thread:
Elves are tier 1 at high TV (well, people can argue about (pro)Elves, but basically they are just tier 1 a bit earlier and not so high)
Congrats for the discovery.
...
Should it be otherwise?
...
Probably not. It's a bit like Dwarfs, a matter of game balance, if ag teams were both soft and easy to beat...
That said, the high ag tricks tend to need several 2+ rolls and a 1d or -2d block, so chances of success for the matchwinning trick aren't too high...not much higher than that of getting rid of an elf with a ClawPOMB+Tackle blitz or a DP gangfoul 
This, Guard and Sure Hands and you can have a race to see who makes his game first: the killer removing the key elves or the pointy ears stealing the game.
And then, sometimes, you see great positioning with good screens and cages preventing the elves from getting a shot at the ball. Or may be it's the elves, wedging a couple of Blodge+Sidestepers that cut the cage away from support to get the ballcarrier exposed next turn. |
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Igvy
Joined: Apr 29, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2012 - 00:30 |
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Couldn't disagree more. Ill explain later.
Edit - been said, won't bother |
Last edited by Igvy on %b %26, %2012 - %10:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2012 - 00:33 |
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| Hitonagashi wrote: | | If you use a double layered cage against it, |
Stop right there...
If you use a double layered cage then the elfs don't have to leap in. They can sit back, let you take your one blitz, and generally keep you from advancing the ball, forcing you to eventually take a 'chance' to score get in scoring range at which point their options go up, or you roll a 1 or 2 or 3 (cuz you know, it can be hard for some teams to ball...) and on top of that, they took few injuries since you're limited to one block per turn.
| Hitonagashi wrote: | | If I've got my maths right (and there's no guarantee I have!), I make that a 12% chance of success. |
I'm not worried about checking you math. I'm pointing out that the elf player isn't doing this willy nilly either. For as good of positioning you can do to protect the ball the elf can do to stall your advance, threaten your cage, whatever. Eventually, if they have to, they take the chance. Eventually if they are lucky, or you are unlucky, they get in on a much better than 12% chance.
| Hitonagashi wrote: | | So, 90% of the time, he faceplants, and you get to bash his entire team (because, if you move too many players, you can't capitalise on a ball spill, and making moves/blocks when you need your reroll for a combo is super risky). |
If you have a double layered cage you don't have many of his men marked. Here I will disagree with your math, because to get all those free blocks when he fails, you have a hard time making a double layer cage and marking up his team. In which case there's little point for the elf to do anything other than blitz you where it will make it harder for you to advance, and double stack the defense such that you cannot advance the ball without putting yourself at greater risk.
| Hitonagashi wrote: | | It's not just "a few 1s". The leap'n'hope strategy is similar to the clawbomb, press PO and hope strategy. |
I think you misinterpret what I mean. Leap and hope is nothing like CPOMB. CPOMB is an utter no brainer, you can block? You block. You break armor? You PO (depending on CAS result). Leap and hope is used when it will be most effective. Not every damn turn. The point being that a good elf coach (as you mention below) is going to play good position, dodge out of TZs, keep you from advancing more than a pace or two per turn, and eventually force you to open your cage, or take your own 'risky' attempt to score late in the half.
You don't beat that coach by simply double caging and waiting for someone to roll double skulls. If you aggressively mark the elves then your BC is (probably) more at risk to take a 1d, or at least, not to have as much support around him.
Most well coached AG4 teams are going to be in good position to take advantage of you failing something, or extending too far, or just spreading out too much. You don't beat them by taking SF or Tackle or any particular skill (other than maybe tents...). You beat them by playing the same game as them, and then hoping they fail their dodge before you fail yours. And by hopefully outnumbering them 2:1 in the 2nd half. But if you can't get them to bash them, it's hard to out number them. And you can't get them to bash them if they don't roll 1s, because they will simply dodge out and reset their defense a couple paces back.
| Hitonagashi wrote: | | You beat elves by denying them the positional game. It's why basher/elf games are so fascinating, because the casualties are just a subtext to controlling the position and denying the space. |
I agree 100%. It's all about how you deny them the positional game. I maintain it's pretty much impossible unless they roll 1s. You seem to think you can do it even if they don't. Well DT can make a difference, but how much DT is any team legitimately going to take? Especially bashy teams, who simply have no easy access to A skills. |
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JigerJones
Joined: Oct 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2012 - 02:21 |
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| Azure wrote: | Wheel of Chaos (Current B major):
3 Teams have won their qualifiers:
Nurgle
Nurgle
Chaos Pact
-- All three have clawpomb.
The remaining 5 teams will be between the following:
Dwarf or CD
Skaven or DE
Skaven or Elf
Dwarf or WE
Vampire or Chaos
Already 3 clawpomb bashers in the final 8...going to be atleast 1 more bash team...a maximum of three agility teams.
Not seeing where your data is coming from. |
Hey Azure, I got an ag5 elf too. Does that make me semi agility?  |
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SvenS
Joined: Jul 07, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2012 - 07:10 |
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I dont get why leap ball stealing elves are a bad thing.
I find the games where the opponent has several options most challanging and thus usually more fun.
I find the positional challange and especially timing challange to be very entertaining.
Do you go for ball early while you have elves remaining, or try to stall his advance a little more?
When facing elves/leapers its also fun as you have to concider more options your opponent has available then "just" the usual running in a cage option.
More varied games are a great thing in my book.
Is ag4 and blodge good? oh yes naturally.
OP? Not unless you play against them as they were the usual bashing team. |
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IL-S
SL |
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Hitonagashi
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2012 - 10:33 |
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Okay, then, two separate subtexts:
The assertion of mine that leap elves are akin to clawbomb:
It's easy to see why this strikes a nerve with Elf coaches. The fact remains though, that leap/wrackle(or with SB) is very effective when used by an experienced coach with a good balance of skills in their team. Just like clawbomb. You can also build a team where the entire tactic is bounce/n/steal as soon as you see an opening. Just like clawbomb. It lets newer players, or those with far weaker positional skills take the game on the back of 1-2 crucial lucky rolls at the right points. Just like clawbomb.
There seems to be a thinking that I'm saying that it is necessarily bad because it's like clawbomb. It's not. It's just, like clawbomb, a dicy tactic. It's a valid method in the playbook of any team that can take it, but if you base your entire game plan around it (as a lot of new wood elf players do), it falls under the same purview of "let's not waste our time playing the game, 3+ I win, 1-2 you win" that clawbomb spam does.
Bashers don't need to hope that elves roll a 1
The thing with bashers is, they all come with some way to control position. Elves have an inbuilt maneuver. They take territory by screens and dodging to deny space. Sure, if an elf rolls a snake, you can exploit that, and your life is a *lot* easier if there's a few 1's scattered around. No arguments there.
Let's take the various bash teams, and their native way of countering elves at higher TV:
Chaos/Nurgle/Orcs/Khemri: 5 ST 4+ pieces. Once these engage with the elf lines, the elves have a choice of sitting there and holding the down, or falling back and giving up ground. They also come with some of the best blitzers in the game, with around a 40% chance of removing a blodging elf on each blitz. If they don't remove *any* elves, it can be very tricky. It only takes 1-3 elves out though for that extra strength to really make a difference and just keep forcing the elves backwards.
Amazons: AG 3 Dodge gives them staying power, and as much blodge as the elves, but they have far more guard/mb, allowing them to choose where they make their blocks.
Norse: 5 Frenzy players. Elves do come with sidestep, but having jump up frenzy mb tackle players blitzing you every turn (and with the ulfs moving into contact), it can cause nightmares with your standard dual layered defenses, with real surf threats on.
Dwarves/Chaos Dwarves: Mass tackle makes elven movement *very* unreliable. Mass guard makes it very hard to penetrate their lines. Good blitzers mean you've got a good chance of removing a few elves.
None of these require the elves to roll 1's. What they all share in common is higher effective strength and durability, whether that comes from just high ST players or mass guard.
That's why elves against bash is so fascinating. You have on one hand, durability, power, strength, hard to break down. On the other hand, you have the ultimate in guerilla, ready to smash in at any sign of weakness.
In the same way as beating elves requires them to roll several 1s, beating a basher requires them to make a mistake (or quadskull/fail pickup). Neither is true, but both are the ways that they usually lose. |
_________________
http://www.calculateyour.tv - an easy way to work out specific team builds.
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Skolopender
Joined: Jun 17, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2012 - 11:00 |
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Bring back ageing... Problems solved.
High SPP players will slowly degenerate. Legends will be something worth mentioning again. Uber clawpombers will get hurt by skilling up, and so will scoring blodgers.
This will also help vs. the giant amounts of cash people hoard.
If everybody is special... No one is...
So in short...
Bring back ageing. |
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Lobbying for a Troll team. If Bonehead Ogres can have one, why not one for Trolls? Power to the Trolls! |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2012 - 11:30 |
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This thread has nothing to do with ageing and ageing is the worst game mechanic of all time. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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