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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 26, 2012 - 18:31 Reply with quote Back to top

I always enjoy our dialogs Hito, thank you for answering.

Now, on to the meat!

Hitonagashi wrote:
Okay, then, two separate subtexts:

The assertion of mine that leap elves are akin to clawbomb:
It's easy to see why this strikes a nerve with Elf coaches. The fact remains though, that leap/wrackle(or with SB) is very effective when used by an experienced coach with a good balance of skills in their team. Just like clawbomb. You can also build a team where the entire tactic is bounce/n/steal as soon as you see an opening. Just like clawbomb. It lets newer players, or those with far weaker positional skills take the game on the back of 1-2 crucial lucky rolls at the right points. Just like clawbomb.


Except that it's not. CPOMB happens every turn, every opportunity the CPOMB coach has to CPOMB he is going to CPOMB. It's far more brain dead than the leap and pray style. For what it's worth, I'm certainly no Elf coach, I'm far more of a basher in the Leagues I play in, but I recognize the difference. CPOMB is ultimately 'easier', doesn't require as much 'luck' to be successful, and can be (and should be) taken on multiple players. L&P is something for one maybe two hyper specialized players. It doesn't happen every turn, unless the other coach is not defending against it (which I've noticed to be the case vs. Slann since Slann players are nearly all capable of making a L&P kind of play, but Slann lack the AG across the team to take advantage of these plays, and Slann don't seem to get up to high TVs often anyway).

And certainly most 'competitive' games will come down to one or two crucial turns and the dice that get thrown on them. The key point, in my opinion, is that the +AG elf teams have a huge advantage in that if they do not fail their dodges (nothing even about the L&P turn) the bash coach is hugely disadvantaged against them. Well that should be obvious I'd think. Elfs with 8 vs 11 are still going to make it hard to score on them to say nothing of elves with 11.

Hitonagashi wrote:
There seems to be a thinking that I'm saying that it is necessarily bad because it's like clawbomb. It's not. It's just, like clawbomb, a dicy tactic. It's a valid method in the playbook of any team that can take it, but if you base your entire game plan around it (as a lot of new wood elf players do), it falls under the same purview of "let's not waste our time playing the game, 3+ I win, 1-2 you win" that clawbomb spam does.


PS might be saying this, I'm not saying it though. An elf team that lucks into +AG on multiple players (and imagine adding +ST to a couple of them) should do this! It's their most effective way to win games, they can't bash anyone, so they have to play the score fast, then score fast again off a turnover. Else they succumb to the 2-1 grind. My only point is that elf teams of this nature are simply unbeatable unless the dice do not favor them. You can draw them (I'll give an example at the end), but beat them? If they don't fail their dodges and can maintain their positioning, if you can't knock them down under 8 players quickly, what are you going to do? The threat of the L&P is huge, because as soon as the elfs go up 2 you're done. Even if you obliterate them the rest of the game, it's going to be really hard to get a WIN. A DRAW is not a WIN.

Hitonagashi wrote:
Bashers don't need to hope that elves roll a 1
The thing with bashers is, they all come with some way to control position. Elves have an inbuilt maneuver. They take territory by screens and dodging to deny space. Sure, if an elf rolls a snake, you can exploit that, and your life is a *lot* easier if there's a few 1's scattered around. No arguments there.


Again, you cannot control position if the elves refuse to fail a dodge here or there. Other than with tents.


Hitonagashi wrote:
{snip analysis} None of these require the elves to roll 1's. What they all share in common is higher effective strength and durability, whether that comes from just high ST players or mass guard.


Actually ALL of them require the elves to roll 1s (or you to roll 6s). The elves are not going to stand toe to toe with ST5 dudes, maybe they do with blodge if there's no tackle on them. Guard is great, but you still only get one blitz per turn unless the elves stick on your markers, which they tend to not do. So yah, you build your cage with guard at the corners, you mark some elves who can't throw back any 2ds at you, and then...

You make your blitz and you watch as the elves just dodge out of everything, throw a blitz back at you, and let you advance your cage one or two paces. Sure eventually you get in scoring range and the elves may have to take their low odds gamble, or they may still have enough space to force you into a few rolls of your own to open a space and or dodge/gfi/pass in for your score. It's not that you can't do it, it's that it's much harder for the basher to score. As it probably should be, I'm not doubting that. Especially 1st half if the elves have a full team to get in your way.

Ultimately though, unless the elves fail something somewhere you're likely looking at a draw at best.

Hitonagashi wrote:
That's why elves against bash is so fascinating. You have on one hand, durability, power, strength, hard to break down. On the other hand, you have the ultimate in guerilla, ready to smash in at any sign of weakness.

In the same way as beating elves requires them to roll several 1s, beating a basher requires them to make a mistake (or quadskull/fail pickup). Neither is true, but both are the ways that they usually lose.


I don't disagree exactly. However, I think that the basher wins when THEY make their rolls, breaking armor and causing CAS. The Elves win when they don't fail their rolls. That's the same thing right? It's not really about this comparison though. It's about it being nearly impossible to beat a well coached well developed elf team unless you get a break with the dice. Either the elf has to hit some double 1s to let you get all the extra blocks you need to shift the numbers, or you simply need to CAS with every blitz.

Now, the example I promised.

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3285022

Look, I am by no means a great coach, but I'm not terribad either. Watch that replay if you like. Yes, the Orcs managed a draw, but look at that DE team. Holy crap! 4 +ST players, 3+ AG players, tons of blodge/SS... that's the kind of team I imagine PS is talking about. Not some 1300TV WE team with one stud WD and a bunch of one skill guys. Now granted, that DE team totally lacks guard, and doesn't have SB or wrestle. If they had... well my orcs would likely have lost, but that's not really the issue exactly.

If you watch that game you note that the orcs are able to force the elves to score on turn 3 or 4, early enough for the orcs to have a legit chance at the equalizer. Note the defense by the elfs, note how it's really hard to advance the ball because there were few CAS, the elves aren't failing their dodges, and the orcs aren't landing their blitzes (yes with tackle and MB even...).

What breaks it open for the orcs? Double 1s. Otherwise? Who knows how that half ends, it certainly isn't a walkin.

2nd half, the orcs do their thing, the DEs do their thing. The orcs wind up in position to work the 2-1 grind just fine. But... the AG5 leap witch gets in the cage and while not getting the ball out (no SB) creates enough of a mess that now the orcs have to score turn 7 instead of 8. Well they don't have to, and that may have been a mistake on my part, but those elfs (because there were still 8 or 9 of them) have enough options to get at the ball, and still get it to someone who can score and win.

If that weren't an L game I probably would have taken the chance, but as it was I decided the 1 point for the draw was important. Anyway, the orcs did everything they could as 'correctly' as I could, and still the result was a draw. Was I unlucky? Did I play it horribly? I don't think either is true. Well other than the troll being pretty useless because he kept rolling 1s...

But take a look at that DE team (they won the league last season for what that's worth to anyone), tell me how you beat them without getting the breaks of them failing a few dodges. It's not as though my Orcs are a terrible matchup against them either. I've got 5 tackle, I've got tons of guard, I've got 4 BoBs and a troll for the St, but still. If the elves don't fail a dodge/block/whatever before they are able to reestablish their defense there's very very little you can do to them.

Get lucky with a pomber isn't an answer I'll accept.
JimmyFantastic



Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 26, 2012 - 18:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Should have scored on T8. He really played into your hands by scoring too early first half.

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 26, 2012 - 19:05 Reply with quote Back to top

JimmyFantastic wrote:
Should have scored on T8. He really played into your hands by scoring too early first half.


Yeah... like I said if it was 'just a game' I would have done that.

For the league I'm in though... I dunno, too conservative, I wanted to make sure I got the 1 point.

The problem was that with that Witch he could have blocked off a corner and still gotten in on the ball with a ST4. Well, he'd be rolling dice, but he had the rrs and stat freaks to make it easier. Still, I can accept that that was probably a mistake on my part.

It would have been much better if I any of my fouls had killed someone :p
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 26, 2012 - 19:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Also... check out Gracehoppers record!

Some of those wins are builders, but only 2 losses!

That's impressive. The NBFL may not be the best league on FUMBBL, but it's not chopped liver either. I think that SF team beat Azure 3 times last season. Granted Azure was playing Skaven and then a WE team in the super bowl, so it's not the elf vs. bash aspect, but it's still impressive.
JimmyFantastic



Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 26, 2012 - 19:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I am sure you could have played better to the point that you could have scored on T8.
There was really no stupid unstoppable dice moments for either team.

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SvenS



Joined: Jul 07, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 26, 2012 - 22:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Well when saying the elves will just dodge away from all bashers basing them is a bit naive. 1/6 happens often and even 1/36 happens eventually.
Dodging all you players would mean a LOT of rolls in a full game :p

Which leads to the 2nd part: elves have to count on 1-2 snakes in a game. Its not terrible luck its just statistics.

Those arguing leap stripballing is a no brainer move should also concider its a very risky one.
You are basicly sending in your star alone in a box for a decent but risky blitz.
Fouls have been nerfed but any basher will likely boot your star if he's down and good bashers keep tackle killers near the ball...

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SL
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 27, 2012 - 01:11 Reply with quote Back to top

SvenS wrote:
Well when saying the elves will just dodge away from all bashers basing them is a bit naive.


Wait! Did someone say that? Where?

SvenS wrote:
1/6 happens often and even 1/36 happens eventually.
Dodging all you players would mean a LOT of rolls in a full game :p


Of course it does. The point being made is that when it doesn't happen early in a turn the elfs become very very hard to move the ball on, as well as hard to bash in general. Thus the mantra, of Elves are OP when they don't roll 1s.

SvenS wrote:
Which leads to the 2nd part: elves have to count on 1-2 snakes in a game. Its not terrible luck its just statistics.


Yep, the key, as with most teams, is when does it happen. If it happens on the first dodge of a turn, disaster. If it happens on the last one (yes, if you fail the 1st it's also the last...) no big deal.

SvenS wrote:
Those arguing leap stripballing is a no brainer move should also concider its a very risky one.
You are basicly sending in your star alone in a box for a decent but risky blitz.
Fouls have been nerfed but any basher will likely boot your star if he's down and good bashers keep tackle killers near the ball...


Aye, though, it's not quite that simple... fouling has a >1/6 chance of ending your turn causing a turnover. Even if you get that elf, if you get sent off you still have potential issues with your set up (depending on where you can reform your cage, because if you commit players to assist the foul, well, that's also where your cage is). And more over, most people don't foul if they also have to score that turn.

But that speaks to the idea that elfs are OP in single games, over a long season, not so much, because gradually the stars will get killed off.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 27, 2012 - 07:12 Reply with quote Back to top

I found this Box major match very amusing.

AG5 gutter + Darkies cant roll above a 1

Obviously I find this amusing because we have a 5AG gutter just moving with alacrity through Darkies for the game winner. And the Darkies have a chance to tie at the end but cannot roll above a 1 numerous times. Darkies were plagued all game long by their inability to roll dice, which is a critical componet of this wacky game.

So we had both in this match. AG 5 zanyness and Elves getting dumped on by rolling 1 all over the place.

If you cant find that funny, well then you have no sense of humor considering what this thread has been talking about for the last 2 pages.

To bad the replay is broke. Talk to PC, he will give you all the gorey details...if he will speak to you about this specific match.

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Reisender



Joined: Sep 29, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 27, 2012 - 08:25 Reply with quote Back to top

wow, purplechest getting nuffled in a major qualifier... its good to see he doesnt need orcs but can get punished with darkies too...
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