Shatner
Joined: Aug 14, 2012
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Aug 14, 2012 - 04:36 |
 
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Blood Bowl has a decidedly bashy bent to it, with most of the teams out there treating the ball as an unwelcome obligation - one that cuts into their opportunities to stomp up and down on the rival team. Furthermore, passing is considered a hazardous pastime which should only be attempted by elves and the desperate; understandable when a successful pass involves 2-3 die rolls (i.e. 2-3 temptings of Nuffle). These two trends have led to, in my opinion, a glut of teams that largely eschew the ball and a dearth of teams who actively pass it. So I've decided to try my hand at filling that neglected conceptual space with a team of my own creation.
Premise:
A human team who plays an elf-like passing game but compensates for lower agility with a multitude of skills.
Balance:
+ A wide number of starting skills, largely focused on handling the ball
+ Universal access to passing skills
+ More AV8 than other Human-variant teams out there
- Players are more expensive than their Human counterparts
- Fewer fundamental skills (block, dodge) to make non-ball game unreliable
- Many players are low armor and prone to suffering knock downs
!!!The team's stats strictly adhere to the Team Building Guidelines posted here!!!
The Team
0-16 Linemen 60,000 6 3 3 7 Pass, Catch GP/SA
0-2 Throwers 80,000 8 2 3 7 Pass, Catch, Sure Hands GAP/S
0-4 Blitzers 100,000 7 3 3 8 Juggernaut, Grab GSP/A
0-2 Skirmishers 90,000 7 3 3 8 Wrestle GAP/S
0-1 Ogre 140,000 5 5 2 9 Loner, Bone-head, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw Team-mate S/GAP
Re-Rolls 50,000
Linemen: More expensive and more fragile than a traditional lineman; each of these can catch and pass the ball as reliably as is possible for an AG3 player. This means the team's cheapest player can act as a adequate thrower and a catcher, giving the team a great deal of flexibility when it comes to moving the ball around. They can be developed without doubles into proper throwers (pass, accurate, nerves of steel, safe throw), catchers (catch, nerves of steel) or, like a traditional lineman, fodder (block/wrestle, fend).
Throwers: Essentially throwers in a catcher-chassis, they are the fastest dedicated throwers in the game and have built-in re-rolls for every aspect of ball handling. They lack the mobility and survivability of their Human counterparts, but they should develop quickly from touchdowns and completions, allowing them to become real terrors.
Blitzers: They are well equipped to punch holes into an enemy line; while blitzing nothing will prevent an opponent from being moved except a skull, regardless of what skills the opponent has. They are also a reliable source of strength skills and better able to endure abuse on the pitch than their ball-passing companions. Still, these are expensive and specialized players who will need more development than normal for a blitzer to be truly effective in their role as team enforcers.
Skirmishers: They are both quick, resilient and capable of acquiring agility skills; skirmishers are meant to be a strong defensive force for the team, especially if they are developed with dodge and/or tackle. Can also be developed into yet another scoring threat with skills like dodge, diving catch, catch or nerves of steel.
Ogre: Same as any other ogre; he's there to keep this team from getting pushed around like the elves do.
My hope is that this team will develop something like Chaos or Slann, in that their early games will be difficult, somewhat clumsy affairs while players try to acquire fundamental skills but that, once developed, the team will be a well-oiled machine. Furthermore, the team should hopefully be able to advance it's players almost as quickly as an elf team, allowing them to get up to speed or replace losses fairly well. I wanted this team to straddle the line between a Human team and a High Elf team. However, I didn't want it to be "Humans but more expensive and with more skills". They should be recognizably Human-related but still quite distinct. And they should be as good with the ball as it's possible to be for an <= AG3 team to be.
Unlike most of the teams out there, this one lacks any Warhammer-appropriate analogue. My familiarity with Warhammer is light so I don't know of any obscure human army which had a javelin/arrow fixation that I could co-opt for the name and backstory of this team. Any help on that front, as well and especially, any feedback concerning the team's balance would be most welcome.
I first proposed this team here on the BB Tactics forum, and it has undergone some discussion, playtesting and revision. The stats I gave above are the 2nd generation of the team (more current version below). Once again, I invite folks to share their thoughts on this team so it can be balanced, polished, and improved. Or ridiculed. Whichever's appropriate. |
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Shatner
Joined: Aug 14, 2012
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| Posted:
Aug 14, 2012 - 04:37 |
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0-16 Linemen 60,000 6 3 3 7 Pass, Catch GP/SA
0-2 Throwers 80,000 8 2 3 7 Pass, Catch, Sure Hands GAP/S
0-4 Blitzers 100,000 7 3 3 8 Wrestle, Grab GSP/A
0-2 Skirmishers 90,000 7 3 3 8 Dodge GAP/S
0-1 Ogre 140,000 5 5 2 9 Loner, Bone-head, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw Team-mate S/GAP
I've done another round of playtesting with the roster above and I'm very pleased with the results. Extremely pleased, actually. The new blitzers are 100% better and I make sure to start with all four in my new roster, compared to having a hard time justifying buying a third with the previous roster. Plus, for the first time I'm actually getting to see grab in action on a scale where I can appreciate it. And having dodge on the Skirmishers makes them the only reliable dodging source early on and means the AV8 players are even more resilient, drawing further contrast between them and their AV7, ball-handling peers. The team works well and can pull off fast moving, reactive plays without resorting to AG4 players, for which I'm proud. Because the team scores quickly when it does get the ball and since the only hitting skill they have is wrestle, the non-ball handlers tend to skill up slowly. However, they are all MV7 and AG3 so they can be fed a few touchdowns if you keep a re-roll handy. Early on the team is a little clumsy and is stuck in the middle ground of being overall iffy at hitting and iffy at dodging. But after a couple of key skills are gained, the team really transforms into a reliable ball-moving force. It may not be able to pull off the crazy desperation plays an elf team can do, but this team operates reliably and with a minimum of team re-rolls needed (since so many players have their own re-rolls skills built in). And unlike an elf team, it can hit stuff and hire a proper big guy.
If anyone else wants to try this team out for themselves in Blood Bowl: Legendary Edition, you can download this modified DB file here and go through the following steps:
1) The database file that governs the game's behavior is likely found here (C:\Program Files\Blood Bowl Legendary\Data\DB). While inside the DB folder, create a folder called "DB Backup".
2) In the DB folder there should be a database file called "Main.db". Move that into your DB Backup folder so that you can, if wanted, go back to playing normal blood bowl instead of my modded version.
3) Download the Main.db file and put it in the DB folder
Now any newly created human teams will use the roster above instead of the traditional human line-up. The existing human teams shouldn't be affected. To revert the human team back to normal, just replace \Data\DB\Main.db with the \Data\DB\DB Backup\Main.db. Note that that database only affects the base states of players and teams (i.e. creating new teams and new players); existing teams and players have their data stored in a separate database in the My Documents folder, which isn't affected by all this.
I don't know if this mod will work for other editions of the Blood Bowl video game. That said, the changes aren't hard to make by hand, so feel free to ping me if you want further instructions.
Anyway, I hope this interests folks and that some of you will find this team fun to play. I certainly have. And I hope you'll post any observations or critiques you have here in the forum.
Oh, I've found the following makes a good TV1000 starting roster:
1 Thrower (80k)
2 Skirmishers (180k)
4 Blitzers (400k)
4 Linemen (240k)
2 re-rolls (100k)
0k left over
Tip: put your Blitzers on the Line of Scrimmage; your linemen will live a lot longer (AV8 + wrestle vs AV7 w/o block or dodge) and they are built to chase after the ball instead of getting punched in the face. |
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cameronhawkins
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
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Aug 14, 2012 - 06:07 |
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Really interesting, sir.
With AG3 and MA8, it's hard to imagine that your Throwers are going to do much Throwing, rather than just Handing-Off.
(Keep in mind that your preconception of this team as passers on this might lead to pass more than the average person would.)
If you want to keep people passing, you've got to keep Movement down. (There currently are no Throwers with MA8.)
I know that you're trying to play up skills, but giving Catch and Pass seems a little silly on linemen. Giving everyone Catch also doubles the chances of an interception, which I think will simply deter the opponent from passing, but not in a fun way. And with rerolls at 50k, having mostly skills that give free RR seems boring and unnecessary. How about Nerves of Steel, which helps both throwing and receiving, and gives them a bit more character? This also circumvents one of the main problems with the AG3 passing game-- 1 marker is usually enough to disuade anyone from passing or catching with this player, regardless of Pass or Catch skills.
Of course, it's not my team at all, but if it WAS think I would build it a little something like this--
0-16 Linemen 50,000 6 3 3 7 Nerves of Steel GAP/S
0-2 Throwers 70,000 5 3 3 7 Kick-Off Return, Strong Arm, Safe Throw GP/SA
0-2 Blitzers 100,000 7 3 3 8 Wrestle, Side-Step, GS/PA
0-4 Blockers 90,000 7 3 3 8 Dodge, Pass Block GA/PS
Here's why I made these choices:
Strong Arm gives Throwers a more reliably longer pass, but keeps the minimum at Pass 3+, like a regular Human, which I think is key to your dynamic. It also means that they can reliably build into great passers without doubles (Block, Pass, Accurate, Sure Hands). Kick-Off Return and -3MA means that they'll stay Throwers, but will definitely need to make a pass (at some point) to score. Replacing Sure-Hands with Safe Throw gives them more reliability in throwing, instead of picking up, which I think is appropriate. It also dispells one of the main deterrents to the human passing game-- risking turnovers with a 3+ Pass.
The linemen are a little expensive at 50k, but the improved skill access means a lot of flexibility-- They can be good catchers with Diving Catch, Catch, and Sure Feet. They can also be great markers with Block, Dodge, and Diving Tackle. Or Passers, or Runners. Ever seen a Pro Elf team flood the opponent's backfield with catchers? It'll be like that, only with much more Catchers! In concert with the Throwers, I can imagine a great HMP strategy happening.
Giving Blitzers Grab would annoy the hell out of me, since it disallows Frenzy on the players that would want it most. Side-Step provides a strong tactical advantage, while not being as one-dimensional as Block or Dodge, and is likely to keep a couple Blocks off you. It also allows the Av8 players to screen better, which I think is necessary since you want to keep your opponents killers off your more fragile players. However, S access instead of A will keep them built very differently than the Blodge/SS cheese of Elf blitzers.
For Skirmishers (which I rename "Blockers" because I would replace the Ogre with these guys on the LOS) I think 7338 Dodge is a really cool build, and I would keep that. Giving them Pass Block seems in character with the design you've got, and synergizes with Dodge. I added 2 Blockers and took away 2 Blitzers so that the team can have quick access to 4 Blodgers, which I think it needs since only 6 players get AV8. This also means that the team is less inclined to be bashy-- 4 human Blitzers seems to be enough to make human Coaches want to play them as a bash team, which I think you want to discourage here.
I also removed P access from the Blitzers and Blockers, since otherwise, an early +AG on these players would channel them into Thrower positions, which I think you want to discourage. Norse and Orc throwers already fall by the wayside when a lineman gets +AG, and that's without easy P access. Blockers having A access is already enough to keep them in the ball-game, with easy catching skills.
Them's my thoughts. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Aug 14, 2012 - 09:57 |
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This seems to be the modern approach to team building and I dislike it.
Why do the blitzers have wrestle when every other biltzer (apart from slann) has block? Why do human's have grab, where no other human has that skill. Or there is a good reason for them to have these skills (apart from to balance your roster). Crazy skills access, eye opening stats....
I'm not even going to start on the lineman with catch.......
A lot of fan based rosters are made like this now, however it isn't my cup of tea at all. Find the elements they want, then cramming it into one list with the stats they feel balance it. Rather than, have the basics, use the stats that physically they should have, and then add something extra to balance the roster, but keeping it within known dynamics of the BB world. |
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uuni
Joined: Mar 12, 2010
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Aug 14, 2012 - 11:19 |
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Sorry to be so confrontative, but why did you join the site to just tell us about your team build for cyanide's client? You have joined today and have not played any games in here nor have any teams? |
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Woodstock
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
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Aug 14, 2012 - 11:33 |
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Fumbbl is not the place to discus cyanide stuff. Moved to off-topic. |
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Shatner
Joined: Aug 14, 2012
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Aug 14, 2012 - 16:13 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | A lot of fan based rosters are made like this now, however it isn't my cup of tea at all. Find the elements they want, then cramming it into one list with the stats they feel balance it. Rather than, have the basics, use the stats that physically they should have, and then add something extra to balance the roster, but keeping it within known dynamics of the BB world. |
I can't speak to other fan-made rosters, however I would like to re-emphasize that this team strictly adheres to the Team Building Guidelines posted here. Those rules can be used to generate very nearly every canonical Blood Bowl team, so they're the best I've seen for creating new, balanced teams.
Furthermore, much of the Blood Bowl canon seemingly came from the game's designers stepping beyond the dynamics of the existing blood bowl world. Nurgle is Chaos with more expensive players and crazy skills; that roster is full of skills that no one else starts with. Slann, one of the latest teams added to the canon, is completely bereft of fundamental skills by design. That team exists to explore a conceptual space that was previously unexplored (ubiquitous leaping with a side order of skills on no other team's starting line-up, such as diving catch and diving tackle).
This fan-made roster is just trying to do the same sort of things: fill a previously unfilled swath of conceptual space and design rookie players who play differently than what already exists in Blood Bowl.
| harvestmouse wrote: | Why do the blitzers have wrestle when every other biltzer (apart from slann) has block? Why do human's have grab, where no other human has that skill. Or there is a good reason for them to have these skills (apart from to balance your roster). Crazy skills access, eye opening stats....
I'm not even going to start on the lineman with catch....... |
The blitzers have wrestle for several reasons.
1) It facilitates opening up holes in the enemy line better than block does. This is a team that can't dodge as well as the elves so it needs to tactically minimize the enemy tackle zones between it and the enemy ball carrier or end zone.
2) To make this team weaker at the hitting game than the vanilla Human team. This team is meant to be balanced (whether I've attained that or not is certainly up for debate) and the balancing point is the Human team. So if it this team is to be better at moving the ball than the Human team, it should be worse in some other respect. Wrestle is, overall, weaker than block.
3) To further distinguish this team from what already exists, but in a balanced and, hopefully, interesting way. You point out Slann as having no block skill on their blitzer, and the game of blood bowl was not made worse by that deviation from the norm. Slann are a very interesting team that many people have played and had fun with while still being balanced opposition.
A team with full positionals (2xthrowers, 4xblitzers, 2xskirmishers, 1xogre) has room for two additional linemen on the pitch. That means the team would have 4x players on the pitch who start with catch. And those linemen aren't exactly phenomenal, so having more linemen than the 2 required is as much a detriment as a little extra catch is a perk. |
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Shatner
Joined: Aug 14, 2012
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Aug 14, 2012 - 16:50 |
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| Woodstock wrote: | | Fumbbl is not the place to discus cyanide stuff. Moved to off-topic. |
I'm not here to discuss cyanide stuff, specifically. I am here to discuss a new team idea I've had, which I happen to playtest using a Cyanide product. A new team roster is relevent to blood bowl players regardless of how they play blood bowl (table top, fuumbl, cyanide, etc.). However I am new to this forum and I apologize if I have crossed some line by bringing up the Cyanide blood bowl game. If need be I can go back and remove that section of my previous post. However, I respectfully request to have this thread moved back to whatever sub-topic is best appropriate for the discussion of a new team idea.
Again, I am willing to edit my previous postings so that this will conform to the expectations of a board I am still acclimating to, but I maintain that this thread is relevant and should not be relegated to the Off-Topic forum. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Aug 14, 2012 - 17:08 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | A lot of fan based rosters are made like this now, however it isn't my cup of tea at all. Find the elements they want, then cramming it into one list with the stats they feel balance it. Rather than, have the basics, use the stats that physically they should have, and then add something extra to balance the roster, but keeping it within known dynamics of the BB world. |
| Quote: | | I can't speak to other fan-made rosters, however I would like to re-emphasize that this team strictly adheres to the Team Building Guidelines posted here. Those rules can be used to generate very nearly every canonical Blood Bowl team, so they're the best I've seen for creating new, balanced teams. |
Yes, I know that system. It's all very well balancing rosters that way so that they aren't too powerful or too weak (however there are loopholes), however just as important, is making the roster fit into the BB world that already exists. Human's have definite stats and skills, I think you need a good reason to deviate from those stats and skill, I don't think you have those reasons.
| Quote: | | Furthermore, much of the Blood Bowl canon seemingly came from the game's designers stepping beyond the dynamics of the existing blood bowl world. Nurgle is Chaos with more expensive players and crazy skills; that roster is full of skills that no one else starts with. |
Well Nurgle was a new race taken from warhammer with a new skill (rot). I prefer the old lrb 4 nurgle list, but the new one also fits nurgle well. Stats are based off of already estabished players, with skills to fit Nurgle's character and warhammer list.
| Quote: | | Slann, one of the latest teams added to the canon, is completely bereft of fundamental skills by design. That team exists to explore a conceptual space that was previously unexplored (ubiquitous leaping with a side order of skills on no other team's starting line-up, such as diving catch and diving tackle). |
Actually no, the new Slann roster, has done a good job of staying in the style of the old 2nd edition Slann roster. As an example in 2nd edition, all blitzers were ST 4 apart from Slann that were ST 3. To represent that, all blitzers now are ST 3 with block, but Slann are ST 3 without block. The closest you could get to representing this. There are a few wacky skills added; like diving tackle and diving catch, which..........yeah I'm not too sure of. However 1. Slann are a different race to anything else in BB and 2. Originally they had some wacky skills that aren't around now (intercept, heroic leap, and a kinda pass block). Altogether I quite like the job done on Slann.
| Quote: | | This fan-made roster is just trying to do the same sort of things: fill a previously unfilled swath of conceptual space and design rookie players who play differently than what already exists in Blood Bowl. |
As you can see I disagree. You've taken something established, and totally changed it, and then putting it back in with established rosters.
As for charging 60k for a 6 3 3 7 lino, with 2 sub optimal skills, that's just crazy. You know, I wouldn't be happy paying 50k for him.
You're not alone, and it's becoming more common, but you know, you just don't get it. All your reasoning is about balancing your roster, and has nothing to do with why they would actually have those skills, and simply they wouldn't.
Reality check: Why would one lino come with 6 3 3 8 and another with 6 3 3 7 catch and pass and some crazy skill access? You know what as a coach, I'm going to do the simple thing and give them better armour. I can obtain it, because my blitzers have it, and with that sort of skill access they'd have the money. So fluffwise it just doesn't fit.
It's the same with all these rosters coming over from Warhammer. If you're going to use warhammer beasties in bloodbowl, keep them as close to their idea, not change them to something bizarre to fit your idea of a cool and balanced roster.
In short, you need to think about more than roster mechanics, and a half baked idea. They need good fluff and statistics that are real compared to their other BB brethren. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Aug 14, 2012 - 17:35 |
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And as much as my own proposed team ideas have been rather crazy and far fetched myself, I disagree with Harvestmouse - he's TOO much for his idea of fluff, but people trying to follow what they thought fluff should be brought us the current Chaos and Chaos Pact rosters, which (for various reasons) are not really the greatest rosters. One could say that the rosters aren't the problem; one could similarly say that any team with 3+ skill access on linemen has an issue.
And reality check: if a player has pass and catch, but isn't a thrower, maybe it's because armour burdens him too much for ball handling, and because of the lesser armour they are rejects that the classic human team wouldn't acquire; but this team picks them up specifically because they do have those skills where the classic human team doesn't want them.
I think this team idea has AT LEAST as much merit as many of the teams that are actually cannon - whether that makes it a good team or not isn't my point. My point is, if you're willing to let some of my silly team ideas (and everyone else who jumped on the band wagon when those rules got posted) stay in the ideas forum where other people can rip them to shreds, why isn't this one there too?
Incidentally I think this is an interesting idea, but I think I would use cameronhawkins roster as a starting point not yours. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Aug 14, 2012 - 17:40 |
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Wanting to play a more throw and catch human team isn't fluff. There's no background to it, or any reason why there would be a background.
I can think of 1 or 2 ideas to add some fluff and reason why a list like this would be in BB, but I wouldn't really want to associate them.
The only list of yours I remember was Kolbolds, and that I would presume was for stunty, where the rules were thrown out the window long long ago.
I wasn't overly keen on that list, and kolbolds are basically gnoblars, but it did have reason behind it at least. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Aug 14, 2012 - 20:23 |
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| Shatner wrote: | | Tip: put your Blitzers on the Line of Scrimmage; your linemen will live a lot longer (AV8 + wrestle vs AV7 w/o block or dodge) and they are built to chase after the ball instead of getting punched in the face. |
?????? Why would you want your linos to live longer? They are the fodder on the team. Even on your alternate roster the heart of the team is the Blitzers.
Why put them on the LOS to be beat down like common j-men?
This idea that they are designed to chase down the ball instead of getting smashed in the face....then what da hell are the blitzers supposed to do? Stand around and get beat to a bloody pulp?
Any human variant roster that has the Blitzers as the ideal fodder is a whacky line up that needs to go into the rubbish bin.
If you are going to make a human variant, then go for the wholle enchallada man.
0-1 Fling
0-1 Ogre
0-1 Vampire
0-1 Long Beard
0-1 Pro Elf Catcher
0-1 Pro Elf Thrower
0-4 Blitzer
0-16 Lineman
50K Rerolls
All standard stats / costs
You give humans that roster and now they will compete at a very high level.
How do I download the variant roster again? Oh, only on cyanide huh?  |
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Shatner
Joined: Aug 14, 2012
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Aug 14, 2012 - 21:28 |
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Thank you ever so much for the constructive, insightful feedback, Cameronhawkins. There's a lot to digest and address here. Let's see.
| cameronhawkins wrote: | Really interesting, sir.
With AG3 and MA8, it's hard to imagine that your Throwers are going to do much Throwing, rather than just Handing-Off.
(Keep in mind that your preconception of this team as passers on this might lead to pass more than the average person would.)
If you want to keep people passing, you've got to keep Movement down. (There currently are no Throwers with MA8.) |
To be honest, I'm not 100% happy with the name "Thrower" for that positional, but I went with that since they are best suited to picking up the kick-off and then moving it around, be that by running it, handing it off or passing it. What I really wanted them to be good at, and noteworthy for, was getting to the ball when it's popped loose during a ruck and then passing it the heck out of there to a receiver. However, I am determined to not resort to the Gutter Runner design of having them be AG4 with dodge and super speed (although we can all agree they are really good at getting at a loose ball). So instead, they'd have better-than-average speed, sure hands, pass, and the capacity to get dodge and nerves of steel in their development, if desired.
The fact is, build an AG3 passing team is an uphill battle given that you need a lot of skills to be a capable thrower and skills are more expensive than AG4. So I had to compromise on making my throwers as versitile as possible (and being fast can make up for not starting with accurate or strong-arm, for example) while giving them access to all the skills they'd need to develop into true throwing and/or retrieving powerhouses.
| cameronhawkins wrote: | | I know that you're trying to play up skills, but giving Catch and Pass seems a little silly on linemen. Giving everyone Catch also doubles the chances of an interception, which I think will simply deter the opponent from passing, but not in a fun way. And with rerolls at 50k, having mostly skills that give free RR seems boring and unnecessary. How about Nerves of Steel, which helps both throwing and receiving, and gives them a bit more character? This also circumvents one of the main problems with the AG3 passing game-- 1 marker is usually enough to disuade anyone from passing or catching with this player, regardless of Pass or Catch skills. |
In my experience, teams pass rarely enough as-is, let alone passing where an interception is possible, that having lots of catch on the team matters little when it comes to interceptions. Furthermore, this team should, once developed, have 2 linemen and 2 throwers on the team (all of whom begin with the catch skill), meaning this team wouldn't have any more catch on it than other teams with four catchers (Human, High Elf, Wood Elf, Pro Elf). Early on the team will have more linemen, and therefore more catch players, but as we can all see the linemen for this team are pretty unimpressive overall and a heightened chance of an interception is not enough to compensate.
I have considered nerves of steel on various positions for this team, linemen included. However, despite being a fine and interesting skill, it rarely accomplishes all that much. Pass and Catch give you better odds of successfully moving the ball when in one or fewer tackle zones than Nerves of Steel, and only offers a slight advantage when in two tackle zones (0TZ = 8/9 with C-P, 2/3 with NoS; 1TZ = 3/4 with C-P, 2/3 wit NoS; 2TZ = 5/9 with C-P, 6/9 with NoS). And if the receiver has two or more tackle zones on him, he probably isn't going to dodge away once he actually catches the ball, seeing that he has AG3 and lacks dodge. Again, replacing AG4 with skills is expensive, so Catch + Pass were the cheapest, most broadly-useful way to accomplish my goal (+30K). After all, an AG3 player with a built-in re-roll is a more reliable ball handler than an AG4 player without, which meant the rank-and-file of this team were actually better (albeit only slightly) at tossing the ball around than their elven peers. That's why I went with pass and catch on the linemen.
This post has already gotten long enough, so I'll respond to your counter-proposal roster in a separate post. But, once more, thanks for the feedback. |
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Shatner
Joined: Aug 14, 2012
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Aug 14, 2012 - 23:25 |
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| cameronhawkins wrote: | Of course, it's not my team at all, but if it WAS think I would build it a little something like this--
0-16 Linemen 50,000 6 3 3 7 Nerves of Steel GAP/S
0-2 Throwers 70,000 5 3 3 7 Kick-Off Return, Strong Arm, Safe Throw GP/SA
0-2 Blitzers 100,000 7 3 3 8 Wrestle, Side-Step, GS/PA
0-4 Blockers 90,000 7 3 3 8 Dodge, Pass Block GA/PS
Here's why I made these choices:
Strong Arm gives Throwers a more reliably longer pass, but keeps the minimum at Pass 3+, like a regular Human, which I think is key to your dynamic. It also means that they can reliably build into great passers without doubles (Block, Pass, Accurate, Sure Hands). Kick-Off Return and -3MA means that they'll stay Throwers, but will definitely need to make a pass (at some point) to score. Replacing Sure-Hands with Safe Throw gives them more reliability in throwing, instead of picking up, which I think is appropriate. It also dispells one of the main deterrents to the human passing game-- risking turnovers with a 3+ Pass.
The linemen are a little expensive at 50k, but the improved skill access means a lot of flexibility-- They can be good catchers with Diving Catch, Catch, and Sure Feet. They can also be great markers with Block, Dodge, and Diving Tackle. Or Passers, or Runners. Ever seen a Pro Elf team flood the opponent's backfield with catchers? It'll be like that, only with much more Catchers! In concert with the Throwers, I can imagine a great HMP strategy happening.
Giving Blitzers Grab would annoy the hell out of me, since it disallows Frenzy on the players that would want it most. Side-Step provides a strong tactical advantage, while not being as one-dimensional as Block or Dodge, and is likely to keep a couple Blocks off you. It also allows the Av8 players to screen better, which I think is necessary since you want to keep your opponents killers off your more fragile players. However, S access instead of A will keep them built very differently than the Blodge/SS cheese of Elf blitzers.
For Skirmishers (which I rename "Blockers" because I would replace the Ogre with these guys on the LOS) I think 7338 Dodge is a really cool build, and I would keep that. Giving them Pass Block seems in character with the design you've got, and synergizes with Dodge. I added 2 Blockers and took away 2 Blitzers so that the team can have quick access to 4 Blodgers, which I think it needs since only 6 players get AV8. This also means that the team is less inclined to be bashy-- 4 human Blitzers seems to be enough to make human Coaches want to play them as a bash team, which I think you want to discourage here.
I also removed P access from the Blitzers and Blockers, since otherwise, an early +AG on these players would channel them into Thrower positions, which I think you want to discourage. Norse and Orc throwers already fall by the wayside when a lineman gets +AG, and that's without easy P access. Blockers having A access is already enough to keep them in the ball-game, with easy catching skills.
Them's my thoughts. |
I've already discussed my opinion of NoS vs Catch-Pass. I will add that I'm not completely comfortable handing out agility access to the linemen. It feels too elfy to me. I understand that the line I'm drawing between "elf-like human team" and "too elf-like human team" is a fine one, but if it's possible for this experiment to work without an excess of agility access, I'd prefer that.
For the blitzers, I don't have a strong opinion about grab vs side-step. I chose grab because it was less used and because it helps open up running room for a team that really doesn't want to do all that much dodging. And of all the players who don't need regular access to pass skills, it's the blitzers. Four blitzers is more Human-like, and despite the emphasis on ball-playing, I think this team needs a fair amount of muscle to keep from being overrun given that it can't dodge with the near impunity that elf teams can. Still, I can't really judge going from 4 -> 2 blitzers in a vacuum, so let's move on to your Blockers (formerly skirmishers).
First off, those blockers are, unfortunately, too cheap given their stats and skills. According to the team building guide, they should have a raw cost of 110K and a final cost of 100k ((110k - 100)/2, round down to nearest 10). Pass Block is neat and thematic but I'm worried that this team, which is supposed to center around passing the ball, lacks any players who are actually good at catching the ball. With no catch, diving catch or AG4, they're as good at catching as Chaos or Orc teams. I think that unthematic-ness more than counters the benefit of pass block. I'd replace pass block with either catch or diving catch instead.
The thrower... hmm. Your premise is that a team with good speed will do hand offs instead of passing, so to encourage passing you should have a slow thrower. That's actually a really interesting idea. You could do some kind of variant of the Lizardmen (high strength-no dodge players coupled with low strength-super dodgy players) where you have a slow arm cannon of a thrower supported by speedy catchers who are, for whatever reason, ill-suited to throwing (like a stunty, actually). Interesting, but I digress.
First off, the thrower should cost 80k (MV5 only deducts 10k from the cost). That's not a big deal, so having said it I'll simply move on. I don't have a strong counter to your thesis except that my roster is somewhat lacking in dodging ability. While the team can cover a lot of open ground, tackle zones quickly force the players to take the long way around. And that can often require a hand off and quick (or farther) pass to accomplish. Beyond that, it's really a matter of taste, I suppose. A team can be "pass-heavy" because it makes a quick or medium range pass a couple times per drive, or it can be "pass-heavy" because it fights to get a receiver within scoring range and then makes a long, long pass from backfield once per drive. My roster is leaning towards the former playstyle while yours clearly embraces the latter. Another, minor critique, to borrow a sentiment from HarvestMouse, is that having a MV5 AV7 human player seems contrary to the expected stats of the race, whereas an MV8 AV7 player is already canonical with the catcher on the Human team. Again, I actually like the idea of the arm-cannon thrower, and wouldn't be averse to working that into my team roster, I'm just not sure how to build such a player so that it jives. That isn't intended to be a polite brush-off of your thrower design; I am genuinely unsure how to design that player given the costs of all the skills needed to make that player function. If this is a direction you all would like to brainstorm, I'd be all for that.
[a few cocktail napkin calculations...]
6 3 3 7 Pass, Safe Throw, Strong Arm = 80k
6 2 3 7 Pass, Safe Throw, Strong Arm, Sure Hands = 70k (though strong arm and ST2 seems pretty odd)
6 3 3 7 Pass, Safe Throw, Strong Arm, Sure Hands = 100k, knock that down to 90k with 10k discount allotted to teams
Moving on...
Pricing issues aside, I like your counter-proposal team fine but I have my critiques of it. I feel like a Human-esque team should have a big guy and should probably have 4 blitzers so they can hold their ground against the bashier majority of blood bowl. The lack of pass and catch on the team seems incongruous with a team meant to be big on passing and catching. And I am vaguely ill at ease about a human player with 5 3 3 7 stats. Beyond that, I think the remaining differences are a matter of taste (side step vs grab; fewer, longer passes vs more, shorter passes). I think the two most contentious components of my roster is the thrower and the lineman. I hope I have adequately defended my design choices surrounding the linemen, but I feel like there is room for revision with the thrower. If folks want to brainstorm that, I'm all ears.
And again, thanks for the in-depth feedback, Cameronhawkins. |
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