truckerpunk
Joined: Dec 04, 2007
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 Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 17:35 |
 
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Enough with Khorne! Give me a Slaanesh roster, that would naturally build without cpomb, and I'm in. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 17:41 |
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| truckerpunk wrote: | | Enough with Khorne! Give me a Slaanesh roster, that would naturally build without cpomb, and I'm in. |
Well I think Slaanesh would have cpomb, the daemonettes come with claw at least.
You can find my team (and icons borrowed from other people) here http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=20779&start=0
I've played a fair bit with this roster, and it's........just about below average, but pretty bashy.
Cowhead and Garion have also done a roster with icons. |
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neoliminal
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 17:59 |
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| dode74 wrote: | | Tom was on the design team. He had a fair bit of experience in these matters. |
Not many better than him, that's for sure.
| dode74 wrote: | | In what sense do you see them as a high level problem? They start with the same number of skills as dwarves. |
Ok, that's a misleading comparison. Dwarves have some redundant skills, like Thick Skull, which aren't worth much in game because for this team they rarely are needed because of their AV.
The same can be said for Horns, in some ways. It can only really be used once per turn, but when a lot of players have it then it becomes more likely that it will be used... as in the case of Chaos.
I'll dismantle the team as it currently is designed in my next post. |
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Last edited by neoliminal on %b %13, %2013 - %19:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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neoliminal
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 18:54 |
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Khorne
• Pit Fighters, Quantity 0-16, 60,000, MA 6, ST 3, AG 3, AV 8, Skills: Frenzy Normal GP; Double AS
Why "Pit Fighters"? They aren't acolytes of Khorne. That's just for starters on this odd "linemen" position.
Why on earth do they get Passing Skills? That makes no sense at all except that someone must have said "this team needs a position with Pass Skill."
This is the straight up model of a standard human with Frenzy and Pass Skill access added on top. It should be 70K for adding the Passing access, but that's debatable because skill access cost has never been clearly described in cost for players.
To reiterate, this position makes no sense. At the very least, Pass Access should be moved to Doubles, on a human team only Throwers have it.
The name should be Worshipers of Khorne or some other more appropriate name. Why would Pit Fighters join a team like this?
• Bloodletter Daemon, Quantity 0-4, 80,000, MA 6, ST 3, AG 3, AV 7, Skills: Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration; Normal GAS, Double P
The Horns + Juggernaut combo is too powerful. It pretty much means that every Blitz on this team will results in a nasty result.
On the other hand, Horns on everyone is a well understood trope from the Chaos team. Next skill is MB and then Piling On. Simple as that.
The toppers are Regeneration and Agility/Strength Skill access. GAS skill access is very very odd. It's as if they just needed someone on the team to have Agility access so they put it here.
This thing isn't going to die. It's going to get very very powerful over time. Too powerful and too easily with casualties coming in bunches.
• Herald of Khorne, Quantity 0-2, 90,000, MA 6, ST 3, AG 3, AV 8, Skills: Horns. Frenzy, Juggernaut; Normal GS, Double AP
Here we have Horns + Juggernaut + Frenzy. It's half a step away from MB and Piling On and then we see this player start to pick up casualties every game.
Luckily it doesn't have Regenerate or it might last forever. On the whole I don't have as much of a problem with this player because it's 0-2 and priced close to what I would expect. The combination of Horns + Juggernaut + Frenzy is still killer.
• Bloodthirster Daemon, Quantity 0-1, 180,000, MA 6, ST 5, AG 1, AV 9, Skills: Loner, Wild Animal, Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration; Normal S, Double GAP
The "Big Guy". First of all, the ST is too low. I know that sounds strange, but it's true. This is a major daemon and should have ST 7 (without Horns).
Loner and Wild Animal are major negative skills and if you were stuck with existing mechanics the best you could hope for. Blood Lust, if it had been worded better (as Tom mentioned in another post) it would have worked great on this team.
Regenerate again means this team will continue to grow stronger with little hope of being stopped in its upward momentum. It will take spiraling expenses to hold them from going over the top.
• Reroll : 70,000
Pure insanity, and while no other team has higher cost for RRs, this team needs to be that exception. 80K would work.
• Starplayers: Grashnak, Morg
As you please.
Summary:
This is now the premier bashing team. The players will quickly get SPPs because the Frenzy will be giving them more blocks per turn than any other team can accomplish.
That means more casualties, particularly when the team get's skills. The skill access is extremely odd. Regenerate will ensure high level players.
At low level the team will seem normal or slightly above average. At high level play this team will destroy opposing players and cause a lot of carnage. T
his team is capable of making 22 Blocks per turn (or if they maxed on Bloodletters, 1 and this is an incredible number of blocks per turn. It won't happen every turn, but you will see these teams getting more blocks per game than any other team. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 19:16 |
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* Pit Fighters is a terrible name. I don't think there's any reason to invent an extra name over Thug or Marauder.
* Marauders had access to everything bar agility. This was to replicate the Chaos Allstar team, that like all 2nd ed teams had lots of variety. Great in principle, bad in practice. I see it (Pit Fighter) as Tom's way of making the Pit Figher the same as the Marauder but not taking anymore flak for making a GSM postional. If the Marauder is ok fluffwise (and it's backed up by the Chaos Allstars team) then the Pit Fighter is also ok, and qualifies under rule 3.5
* You've removed the bloodlust? Now you're working under the same contstraints as the design team had. In which case, making a roster acceptable to the fluffers is impossible, and you might as well go the original route and make a roster that's fun to use.
*Maybe the Blood Thirster should be ST 7, however I'd be happier with a ST 6 and an ST 4 Letter. I see no reason for the Herald of Khorne what so ever, it's just a hero choice Letter, and makes the roster harder to balance.
Essentially a Thirster is Balrog from Lord of the Rings. How would you make him? Probably ST 7, but ST 6 is probably as strong as you can go in BB imo. And at ST 6 is equal strongest player in the game. |
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neoliminal
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 19:25 |
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I didn't change anything here. I just pointed out what I don't like about the current roster. Blood Lust is the best nega-skill they could have had, but as was pointed out they would need to make that skill non-Vampire specific.
Pit Fighter. Seriously. WTF.
Blood Thirster should be ST 7. Period. Full Stop. The Dwarven Big Guy had it... only other player and it's a secret weapon.
It wouldn't be a bad idea to ditch the Herald or at least just make them better starting Bloodletters. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 19:40 |
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I believe Pit Fighter was not a choice the design team had.
I think they made a terrible mess of the Khorne rooster, but there is no point pretending that they had the freedom to do whatever they wanted. |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 19:46 |
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Thirster must be able to fly, give him AG 5, leap, VLL and no hands  |
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xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 19:55 |
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But he has hands. Give him Ring of Teleportation, usable every turn. |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 19:59 |
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@ neoliminal
I'll answer the questions as well as I can as much as possible bearing in mind I am still under NDA (although the extent of it has been reduced).| neoliminal wrote: | Khorne
• Pit Fighters, Quantity 0-16, 60,000, MA 6, ST 3, AG 3, AV 8, Skills: Frenzy Normal GP; Double AS
Why "Pit Fighters"? They aren't acolytes of Khorne. That's just for starters on this odd "linemen" position. |
Design constraint not by us.
| Quote: | | Why on earth do they get Passing Skills? That makes no sense at all except that someone must have said "this team needs a position with Pass Skill." |
A bit of that, but also: it works. Try it - it's not just a leader caddy. Fluffwise it can be explained if you're willing to stretch a little.
| Quote: | | This is the straight up model of a standard human with Frenzy and Pass Skill access added on top. It should be 70K for adding the Passing access, but that's debatable because skill access cost has never been clearly described in cost for players. |
Skill access costs nothing, as you say (whether it should cost or not is another discussion entirely). 60k makes the team affordable and 10k for mass frenzy (which can be a negative at that high an amount) seems reasonable.
| Quote: | To reiterate, this position makes no sense. At the very least, Pass Access should be moved to Doubles, on a human team only Throwers have it.
The name should be Worshipers of Khorne or some other more appropriate name. Why would Pit Fighters join a team like this? |
I think I've answered this above. I don't expect agreement, but this is the explanation
| Quote: | • Bloodletter Daemon, Quantity 0-4, 80,000, MA 6, ST 3, AG 3, AV 7, Skills: Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration; Normal GAS, Double P
The Horns + Juggernaut combo is too powerful. It pretty much means that every Blitz on this team will results in a nasty result. |
You only get one blitz per turn.
| Quote: | | On the other hand, Horns on everyone is a well understood trope from the Chaos team. Next skill is MB and then Piling On. Simple as that. |
On these? Guard is more useful due to the mass frenzy, and AV7 means that they will need Blodge pretty early in order to be able to stay on the pitch. The Letters are actually utility players, supporting the real killers (Heralds and Thirster).
| Quote: | | The toppers are Regeneration and Agility/Strength Skill access. GAS skill access is very very odd. It's as if they just needed someone on the team to have Agility access so they put it here. |
A access can be explained in the fluff, and as a utility player they need it.
| Quote: | | This thing isn't going to die. It's going to get very very powerful over time. Too powerful and too easily with casualties coming in bunches. |
We shall see. I'm not sure I agree - blodge/AV7/Regen still dies, and at AV7 they are a target. They need a lot of survival and utility skills, and will therefore not progress that fast, imo.
| Quote: | • Herald of Khorne, Quantity 0-2, 90,000, MA 6, ST 3, AG 3, AV 8, Skills: Horns. Frenzy, Juggernaut; Normal GS, Double AP
Here we have Horns + Juggernaut + Frenzy. It's half a step away from MB and Piling On and then we see this player start to pick up casualties every game. |
No claw, or access to it. I think you may be overstating the case, but the intent was to make the Demons on this team absolutely fearsome at blitzing (note: not blocking which, even with block, they are no better than the linemen at), which they are.
| Quote: | | Luckily it doesn't have Regenerate or it might last forever. On the whole I don't have as much of a problem with this player because it's 0-2 and priced close to what I would expect. The combination of Horns + Juggernaut + Frenzy is still killer. |
Pricing was based on Tom's guide.
| Quote: | • Bloodthirster Daemon, Quantity 0-1, 180,000, MA 6, ST 5, AG 1, AV 9, Skills: Loner, Wild Animal, Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration; Normal S, Double GAP
The "Big Guy". First of all, the ST is too low. I know that sounds strange, but it's true. This is a major daemon and should have [b]ST 7 (without Horns).[/b] |
At ST7 he would cost a bomb. The aim was to make him the most fearsome player out of the box at blitzing in the game, and I think we've achieved that. Nothing else has the same odds of a successful pitch removal or as low a chance of turnover.
| Quote: | | Loner and Wild Animal are major negative skills and if you were stuck with existing mechanics the best you could hope for. Blood Lust, if it had been worded better (as Tom mentioned in another post) it would have worked great on this team. |
I agree. Blood Lust was the only negatrait which could have worked, but the wording precluded it.
| Quote: | | Regenerate again means this team will continue to grow stronger with little hope of being stopped in its upward momentum. It will take spiraling expenses to hold them from going over the top. |
I await play results, tbh. Currently they sit firmly in the T1.5 bracket. I have data for 800+ completed games atm, and should be getting more in a few weeks. Most of the data is low TV, so anything we say about high TV will be theory. Personally, I disagree that they'll be OP at that point: they will still have frenzy to deal with, and blodging sidesteppers will be their downfall.
| Quote: | • Reroll : 70,000
Pure insanity, and while no other team has higher cost for RRs, this team needs to be that exception. 80K would work. |
RR price was aimed high, ofc. The team needs them at the start due to all the frenzy, though.
| Quote: | • Starplayers: Grashnak, Morg
As you please. |
Not our choice.
| Quote: | Summary:
This is now the premier bashing team. The players will quickly get SPPs because the Frenzy will be giving them more blocks per turn than any other team can accomplish.
That means more casualties, particularly when the team get's skills. The skill access is extremely odd. Regenerate will ensure high level players. |
The vast majority of blocks will be without the safety net of Block, and later without the Guard that other teams will pick up. The team's lack of "core" skills will be a major stumbling block, and the lack of claw access will mean that, while they may end up being better at getting people on the floor than most other teams, they won't be breaking armour as much.
It's worth pointing out that some of the skills were determined by the (already completed) models. Some things we just couldn't really budge. We also wanted to ensure that we didn't simply get another heavy bash CPOMB team.
| Quote: | | At low level the team will seem normal or slightly above average. At high level play this team will destroy opposing players and cause a lot of carnage. T |
As I said, at low level the team is playing within the T1.5 bracket. Overall, in the MM league for which I have stats, for 888 games they are 286/184/418 W/D/L; at sub-1200TV they are 176/94/233 - slightly better, but too small a sample to say anything realistic about their capability after progression.
| Quote: | | This team is capable of making 22 Blocks per turn (or if they maxed on Bloodletters, 1 and this is an incredible number of blocks per turn. It won't happen every turn, but you will see these teams getting more blocks per game than any other team. |
It'll be interesting to see if you are right. Do we have similar stats for Norse? They should, after all, average slightly higher as well.
@ harvestmouse
| Quote: | | *Maybe the Blood Thirster should be ST 7, however I'd be happier with a ST 6 and an ST 4 Letter. I see no reason for the Herald of Khorne what so ever, it's just a hero choice Letter, and makes the roster harder to balance. |
The choice of which positionals to have, and their names, was not ours to make. |
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neoliminal
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 20:04 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | I believe Pit Fighter was not a choice the design team had.
I think they made a terrible mess of the Khorne rooster, but there is no point pretending that they had the freedom to do whatever they wanted. |
Someone, somewhere, had a choice. I'm not dinging the design team, I'm dinging the roster. Whatever combination of effects caused it is not the point of this thread, rather the point is the result.
Now they have two choices.
1) Suck it up and fix it.
2) Pretend it isn't a problem and play through.
The first would get the roster into NAF/FUMBBL/GW Tournies.
The second will likely get it ignored by everyone except Cyanide. |
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neoliminal
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 20:11 |
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| dode74 wrote: | @ neoliminal
I'll answer the questions as well as I can as much as possible bearing in mind I am still under NDA (although the extent of it has been reduced). |
Thanks! I appreciate what candor you can give.
Do you have casualty stats for those games? |
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Last edited by neoliminal on %b %13, %2013 - %21:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 20:16 |
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Neo its far far better, but letters needs st4. its a must.
| neo wrote: | | These are the slaves of Khorne, brought in as fodder for the feast of death. The Bloodletters feast upon them as needed |
no need to make this bit of fluff up either. There is plenty of fluff dating back to the book slaves to darkness which shows that Khorne followers attack each other at the drop of a hat, basically if there is nothing about that can be killed they go after each other, they don't feast on each other though.
I quite like the roster but I think you should make every player a thrall not just the linemen.
edit: oh and cloggy is absolutely right a Khorne roster even if done properly would be the last thing the game ever needed. |
Last edited by Garion on %b %13, %2013 - %20:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 20:23 |
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I have a cas-per-game for all games (including concessions and disconnects), which puts Khorne exactly in the middle of the run for both cas taken and cas caused (take 2.18 per game, give 1.72). That doesn't account for regen, of course, but Necro, Undead and Khemri all take fewer cas per game.
If you want you can download the spreadsheet with the data (in fact, all the FOL data) here: http://www.mediafire.com/?28ssapdze52dsck
(50MB macro-enabled Excel Spreadsheet in a zip file). |
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selfy_74
Joined: Sep 03, 2010
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2013 - 20:37 |
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| Cloggy wrote: | | I don't see why we need another team with mass frenzy. |
Norse, don't have mass frenzy. They have 5 at most. Khorne however, have at least 7 on the pitch and with injuries it goes up (assuming you have a bench). I like to have all 11 players with frenzy. Difficult to manage, but pure madness and fits the fluff nicely. That's mass frenzy.
Khorne are all about the horn, juggernaut, frenzy blitzes and surfs. |
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