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AvatarDM



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 02, 2004 - 18:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, Accurate helps for not fumbling a Long Bomb as much as Strong Arm (-2 to the roll or -3 and +1 is the same for not rolling a 1 after all modifications).
TheAnomaly



Joined: Mar 17, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 02, 2004 - 19:07 Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="SubSonic"]
Grod wrote:

So once again... shouldnt acc rather be trait than SA?


traits are intended to be inherent physical abilities, whereas skills are things one can learn. With training, one can learn to be an accurate passer (in fact, it is the only way); ergo, it is a skill. A strong arm, however, requires a phyiscal apptitude that can be acquired with propert weight training on top of practice, practice, practice, will always be beyond some people; therefore, it is a trait.
Xeterog



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 02, 2004 - 19:58 Reply with quote Back to top

You have the same odds of fumbling a Long bomb with accurate as you do with Strong arm. Your target number remains the same, based on your agility. So, a Human thrower would have a target number of 4+ for a long bomb. You roll the dice and add modifiers.
so, Die roll + 1 (accurate) -2 (long bomb)...(note that the total modifier to the die is -1) for a player with accurate
and Die roll -1 (strong arm makes long bomb a long pass).

See, same -1 modifier to the roll..so same chance of fumbling (1-2 fumble, 3-4 inaccurate, 5-6 accurate in this case)

Basically, the ONLY practical difference between Accuarate and Stong Arm is that accurate works on Quick passes and Strong arm does not.

Code:
                   Modifiers to the DIE roll of a pass
                       No skill     Accurate    Strong Arm      both
Quick Pass           +1            +2            +1 (qp)          +2
Short pass           +0            +1            +1 (qp)          +2
Long pass            -1             +0            +0 (sp)           +1
Long Bomb          -2              -1             -1 (lp)            +0

Xeterog



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 02, 2004 - 20:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Thunderhammer wrote:
As far as I understand the rules the negative modifiers for range can never be negated, unless you you actually make the pass on the roll.

For example, an Elf Thrower (AG4) has accurate and will throw a longbomb. He's surrounded (2 tackle zones, and more to come) and it's critical that he doesn't fumble, but a misthrow is ok since any teammate could always pick up the ball on 2+ in another turn.

With accurate he'll pass on 4+, which is 6+ for the tacklezones. Fumble will be on 1-5. With strong arm, it's the same but fumbles would be on 1-4. See the difference?

A bit extreme example perhaps, but as you see Strong Arm is better when fumbling is your primary concern. Accurate just improves dice rolling, while Strong Arm actually does something specialized, reducing fumble range.

So I think it's fair for a trait, and I will always take it for a master passer.


Actually, all the modifiers are to the die roll..so the elf needs a 3+ (agility 4) to make and accurate throw. Then you roll the die and apply the modifiers:
Die roll + 1 (accurate) -2 (long Bomb) -2 (TZ)..for a total modifier of -3
so, die roll -3 must be greater than or equal to 3. work out the numbers and you'll see he'll fumble on a 1-4 (4-3 =1). be inaccurate on a 5 (5-3=2) and accurate on a 6 (auto..but 6-3=3 also)

With strong arm, the modifiers are: Die roll -1 (long pass) -2 (TZ) or -3..same as accurate!

Of course, it is effectively the same to say that the thrower has to roll a 6+ for an accurate pass. People often combine the modifiers into the target number for simplicity sake...say an agility 4 elf dodging ..he needs a 3+..but hasa +1 just for dodging..so 99% of the coaches will say he has a 2+ to dodge..because that is really what he needs. But in actualality, he still needs a 3 or better on a D6 + 1 (dodgeing)..
Darkwolf



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 02, 2004 - 20:30 Reply with quote Back to top

The ability to throw LONG passes accurately and without fumbling is a great advantage in the game. Especially for the underrated orc thrower with 5MA. Stretching the field, moving the ball quickly and to score even when having to go into your own backfield is a huge advantage. Accurate is the skill to get the ball to people in the quick/short range. Even Khermi throwers can get the ball with accuarate to players. However, Strong arm (with accurate) gives you a whole added dimension to a teams thrower. The long and depe passes can be hurled without as much worry.
Im glad the 'better' skill accuarate is the easier one to obtain. It is to throwers as block is to linemen.

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origami



Joined: Oct 14, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 02, 2004 - 23:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Having accurate as a trait would give ag4 throwers an even greater advantange over the ag3 throwers than they already have. With accurate, an orc thrower is just as good at throwing a quick pass as an elf. However, if he only has access to strong arm as regular passing skill, then he has a good chance of being stuck with 3+ quick passes for his entire career. This would also reduce spp for the poor orc, making elf throwers gain skills at a faster rate throughout their careers, as well. It ends up being a pretty big game balance issue.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 05, 2004 - 09:33 Reply with quote Back to top

TheAnomaly wrote:
Grod wrote:

So once again... shouldnt acc rather be trait than SA?


traits are intended to be inherent physical abilities, whereas skills are things one can learn. With training, one can learn to be an accurate passer (in fact, it is the only way); ergo, it is a skill. A strong arm, however, requires a phyiscal apptitude that can be acquired with propert weight training on top of practice, practice, practice, will always be beyond some people; therefore, it is a trait.


erm

Change that quote to Subsonic pls. I did NOT write that!


Last edited by Grod on Apr 05, 2004 - 11:12; edited 1 time in total
Perox



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 05, 2004 - 10:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

You have the same odds of fumbling a Long bomb with accurate as you do with Strong arm.


From the LRB:
Quote:

If the dice roll for a pass is 1 or less before or after modification, the thrower has fumbled and dropped the ball.


The only pass modifiers are enemy TZ and range penalties. Accurate comes into account later.
Therefore yer table is wrong, SA does reduce the fumble risk.

Perox.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 05, 2004 - 11:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Perox wrote:
Quote:

You have the same odds of fumbling a Long bomb with accurate as you do with Strong arm.


From the LRB:
Quote:

If the dice roll for a pass is 1 or less before or after modification, the thrower has fumbled and dropped the ball.


The only pass modifiers are enemy TZ and range penalties. Accurate comes into account later.
Therefore yer table is wrong, SA does reduce the fumble risk.

Perox.


Sorry. Why is it that the +1 for accurate does not count as a pass modifier? Im not sure that I follow this.
BadMrMojo



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 05, 2004 - 16:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
Perox wrote:
...
The LRB wrote:

If the dice roll for a pass is 1 or less before or after modification, the thrower has fumbled and dropped the ball.

The only pass modifiers are enemy TZ and range penalties. Accurate comes into account later.
Therefore yer table is wrong, SA does reduce the fumble risk.

Sorry. Why is it that the +1 for accurate does not count as a pass modifier? Im not sure that I follow this.

Because it's not included in the chart of pass modifiers (LRB p. 13). Only range and TZs are. Same thing should go for Foul Appearance, I believe. It lowers the odds of an accurate pass but not a fumble.

So you make your roll, apply range and TZ modifiers, check for a fumble, then add in any skill-related modifiers.

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Perox



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 05, 2004 - 16:24 Reply with quote Back to top

i.e. a long bomb is only accurate on 4+, no matter your agility or accuracy. With strong arm, you can reduce that to 3+.
AvatarDM



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 05, 2004 - 17:59 Reply with quote Back to top

BadMrMojo wrote:
Grod wrote:
Perox wrote:
...
The LRB wrote:

If the dice roll for a pass is 1 or less before or after modification, the thrower has fumbled and dropped the ball.

The only pass modifiers are enemy TZ and range penalties. Accurate comes into account later.
Therefore yer table is wrong, SA does reduce the fumble risk.

Sorry. Why is it that the +1 for accurate does not count as a pass modifier? Im not sure that I follow this.

Because it's not included in the chart of pass modifiers (LRB p. 13). Only range and TZs are. Same thing should go for Foul Appearance, I believe. It lowers the odds of an accurate pass but not a fumble.

So you make your roll, apply range and TZ modifiers, check for a fumble, then add in any skill-related modifiers.



Page 34 of the LRB:

Accurate (Passing Skill)
The player may add +1 to the dice roll when he passes the ball.

I think this is applied before checking if the pass was a fumble.
Tinkywinky



Joined: Aug 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 05, 2004 - 18:25 Reply with quote Back to top

The reason accurate isn't mentioned in the table is because it's in the non-extra section of the rules. In fact no skills other then those used by orcs or humans are mentioned there. And the text only says modification not "modifiers listed in the table in the rules sections that doesn't even use rules for fumbles or "special skills".

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Xeterog



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 05, 2004 - 19:35 Reply with quote Back to top

pg 13 LRB:
Quote:
Look up the player’s Agility on the Agility table to find the
score required to successfully pass the ball. Roll a D6,
and add or subtract any of the modifiers that apply to the
dice roll. A roll of 1 before modification always fails and
a roll of 6 before modification always succeeds.


Note that it says 'add or subract ANY of the modifiers that apply to the dice roll'

pg 22 LRB:
Quote:

Fumbles
Sometimes a player attempting to throw the ball will drop
it in their own square. This is more likely if the player has
any opposing players breathing down his neck! To
represent this, if the dice roll for a pass is 1 or less
before or after modification, then the thrower has
fumbled and dropped the ball. The ball will bounce once
from the thrower’s square, and the moving team will
suffer a turnover and their team turn ends immediately.


Note that is says rolling a 1 or less BEFORE or AFTER modification.

No where does it say that the only modifiers to take into account are the ones on the passing table. In fact, it specifically says to apply ANY modifiers that apply to the roll. This would include Accurate and Foul appearance, and even Weather effects.
Ash



Joined: Feb 03, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 12, 2004 - 20:43 Reply with quote Back to top

infact, strong arm is a trait only to avoid no-thrower stacking 2 +1 on pass roll...
to be a good thrower, you need to be a thrower!

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