bigGuy
Joined: Sep 21, 2009
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 Posted:
Aug 12, 2013 - 09:04 |
 
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Compared to wandering apo, Igor sucks. Small idea how to fix it:
Before rolling regen roll, player may choose to use Igor. Igor makes regen roll 2+.
This would make Igor a little bit "strategic". I really don't like "second coin toss" approach.
P.S. I'm aware that regen > apo, and may need a fix. What I'm saying WA > Igor and needs a fix.
P.P.S. Some calc how it works now
BH chance 50%.
MNG chance 16,67%
Statdrop/dead 33,33%
In case of BH, Igor is useful 50% of the time.
In case of MNG, Igor is useful 50% of the time.
In case of statdrop/dead, Igor is useful 50% of the time.
In case of BH, WA is useful 100% of the time.
In case of MNG, WA is useful 50% of the time.
In case of statdrop/dead, WA heals 50% of the time (+ replaces statdrop/dead to MNG 16,7%, but player doesnt go to reserves. so we skip if for now).
So, Igor is useful 0,5*0,5+16,67*0,5+33,33*0,5 = 0,5; or 50% of the time.
WA is useful 1*0,5+16,67*0,5+33,33*0,5 = 0,75; or 75% of the time.
On top of that, apo has:
Ability to heal KO -> stun
Can reduce statdrop/dead to MNG. |
Last edited by bigGuy on %b %12, %2013 - %14:%Aug; edited 1 time in total |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Aug 12, 2013 - 09:48 |
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why not RR regen with 3+? that's the same as a single 2+. (1/2 x 1/3 |
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BooAhl
Joined: Sep 02, 2004
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Aug 12, 2013 - 09:50 |
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I dont agree,
Igor makes Regen work 75% of the time. 2+ is 83.3 % of the time. Not that big difference. And the Igor can be saved if reg is working. |
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bigGuy
Joined: Sep 21, 2009
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Aug 12, 2013 - 10:23 |
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100k single use inducement that works 50% of the time is to unreliable for my taste.
Requirement to select Igor BEFORE regen attempt makes it more strategic.
Single 2+ roll is in line with other similar inducements: bribe or wizards lightning.
It is still not OP compared to WA, because:
1) You can have only one Igor
2) You cannot heal KO -> Stun
3) You cannot auto-heal BH |
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Mephistodragonbane
Joined: Nov 26, 2012
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Aug 12, 2013 - 10:46 |
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why would you use a re-roll before he's failed it?
Igor is a Re-roll device not a insta heal |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 12, 2013 - 11:36 |
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they are both fine in terms of balance (though I do agree apo vs regen is way out now).
However I still wouldn't bother taking either of them the vast majority of the time.
Babes, Wizard, Bribes and even Star Players will all come before I consider Apo or Igor the majority of the time. |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Aug 12, 2013 - 11:46 |
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babes in an all-regen, no-apo-team is a must... |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Aug 12, 2013 - 11:47 |
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I have a themed zombie team where I've been taking Igor. I've taken him hmmmmmmmm half a dozen times and he hasn't been useful once.
That being said, I can see him being useful on a team that's........useful. I don't think he's a great inducement, but I think he's pretty balanced. (unlike apo vs regen as pointed out above). |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Aug 12, 2013 - 11:58 |
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| bigGuy wrote: |
P.S. I'm aware that regen > apo, and may need a fix. What I'm saying WA > Igor and needs a fix. |
Regen is fine because you actually pay for the skill in TV. And then you get no apo on top of it.
Igor is fine because you have no natural way to improve your recovering odds with undead teams. You enter them in a lottery of dieing and living. The point of this investment isn't to just randomly improve the health of your team but to give you some ability to channel the carnage away from someone.
Being able to half the odds for injury on one player makes 100k inducements well worth of an investment.
A wandering apo is also not better because a wandering apo will never improve your healing chances over those of an apo. Two apos don't combo. (The best the apo can do is 2/3 = 66%) vs Regen+Igor = 3/4 = 75%)
So although in terms of absulte numbers hte igor is worse than the apo by the MNG chance, it gives you excellent control over keeping somebody in the game.
2+ rolls make it too easy to keep player types in the game and especially with the remaining current rules it was a good choice to abandon that concept entirely. |
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bigGuy
Joined: Sep 21, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 12, 2013 - 13:01 |
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I have been taking Igor on non-joke team, and he was totally useless.
| Wreckage wrote: | The best the apo can do is 2/3 = 66%) vs Regen+Igor = 3/4 = 75%)
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Um, I don't agree with this. You compare WA effect vs regen + igor effect. Look at this from this angle:
BH chance 50%.
MNG chance 16,67%
Statdrop/dead 33,33%
In case of BH, Igor is useful 50% of the time.
In case of MNG, Igor is useful 50% of the time.
In case of statdrop/dead, Igor is useful 50% of the time.
In case of BH, WA is useful 100% of the time.
In case of MNG, WA is useful 50% of the time.
In case of statdrop/dead, WA heals 50% of the time (+ replaces statdrop/dead to MNG 16,7%, but player doesnt go to reserves. so we skip if for now).
So, Igor is useful 0,5*0,5+16,67*0,5+33,33*0,5 = 0,5; or 50% of the time.
WA is useful 1*0,5+16,67*0,5+33,33*0,5 = 0,75; or 75% of the time.
On top of that, apo has:
Ability to heal KO -> stun
Can reduce statdrop/dead to MNG.
From these numbers, it looks like WA is much better than Igor. Or can you point out, why my calculation is wrong? |
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gjopie
Joined: Oct 27, 2009
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Aug 12, 2013 - 13:05 |
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| bigGuy wrote: | | From these numbers, it looks like WA is much better than Igor. Or can you point out, why my calculation is wrong? |
I might be wrong, but it feels unfair to compare apothecaries to pure Igor - the fact is, with Igor, you get to use regen as well, and that brings the odds up to 75%. |
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BooAhl
Joined: Sep 02, 2004
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Aug 12, 2013 - 13:10 |
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| gjopie wrote: | | bigGuy wrote: | | From these numbers, it looks like WA is much better than Igor. Or can you point out, why my calculation is wrong? |
I might be wrong, but it feels unfair to compare apothecaries to pure Igor - the fact is, with Igor, you get to use regen as well, and that brings the odds up to 75%. |
This.
When comparing you always have to calculate the regen roll as well. |
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bigGuy
Joined: Sep 21, 2009
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Aug 12, 2013 - 13:35 |
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| gjopie wrote: | | bigGuy wrote: | | From these numbers, it looks like WA is much better than Igor. Or can you point out, why my calculation is wrong? |
I might be wrong, but it feels unfair to compare apothecaries to pure Igor - the fact is, with Igor, you get to use regen as well, and that brings the odds up to 75%. |
Um, I compare wandering apo vs igor. If you want compare regen+igor, then compare it to 2x apo. |
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Ehlers
Joined: Jun 26, 2006
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Aug 12, 2013 - 14:46 |
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| bigGuy wrote: | | gjopie wrote: | | bigGuy wrote: | | From these numbers, it looks like WA is much better than Igor. Or can you point out, why my calculation is wrong? |
I might be wrong, but it feels unfair to compare apothecaries to pure Igor - the fact is, with Igor, you get to use regen as well, and that brings the odds up to 75%. |
Um, I compare wandering apo vs igor. If you want compare regen+igor, then compare it to 2x apo. |
Any team that cannot purchase a permanent Apothecary can hire an Igor for 100,000. An Igor may only be used once per a game to re-roll one failed Regeneration roll for a player.
So if you want to compare how the igor works vs the WA, then you need to take it into context how exactly it does work and why it is priced as it is. |
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gjopie
Joined: Oct 27, 2009
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Aug 12, 2013 - 15:00 |
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| bigGuy wrote: |
Um, I compare wandering apo vs igor. If you want compare regen+igor, then compare it to 2x apo. |
Can you use two apothecaries on a single roll, if you have them? (Genuine question!) If so, then yes, you could compare it to two. If not, then comparing it to two would not be appropriate.
Also, while every team that gets Igor has regen, not every team that gets a WA has an apothecary in the first place. There won't necessarily be 2x apo. |
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