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WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2013 - 18:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Here's a little something to take your mind off of Halflings for a bit. There are a few minor adjustments I have been considering to help balance out Stunty a wee bit. I.e. make all the teams more fun to play and to play against.

NOTE: This topic is JUST for these suggestions. If it was open to all suggestions it would be a 40 page mess quickly. Posts on other ideas will be ignored and possibly deleted.


***ESHIN***
This roster was "over-costed" more than any other roster based on what my Stunty cost tool said it should be. This was mostly because people feared the old Eshin team that dominated. The new Eshin can dominate, but are too expensive and fragile to maintain for more than a few games. The proposal is that the Adepts would be dropped 5gp in price. Instead of dropping the Night Runner (NR) and Assassin costs, I would rather see AV7 for some durability. This represents their greater skill and status as they approach the level of the Gutter Runners.

Assassin - AV7
NRs - AV7
Adepts - 35 (-5)


***GNOBLAR***
Gnoblars are very much a viable team now with access to all three ogres. With that, the general line fodder has become a little too reliable. The standard Gnoblars having AV7 just doesn’t seem right for me. They should be somewhere between a Goblin and a Snotling, and AV6 does that nicely. The Bullies and Trappers are fine with AV7 as they are slightly tougher and better equipped.

Gnoblars - AV6


***SKRYRE***
The dreaded Mechas took it on the chin to avoid them being uber ball carriers. I think it AG1 might have been too much and would like to see them at AG2. They are Skaven who have been engineered, so they should start with AG3 and the cumbersome gear saps 1AG.

Mechavermin - AG2


***FOREST GOBLIN***
The Forest Goblins have shown they are deadly at low TV, mostly because they have 4 stabbers. They also have Spider Riders for defence, but the Stikkas are plain horrifying for opponents when they work half decent. Three maximum seems like a good balance.

Stikkas - 1-3 players


***CHAOS HALFLINGS***
The Chaos Flings are downright terrifying at high TV when they begin to mutate and can field crazy ballers, nasty cage breakers, and all sorts of utility players. The 35gp price tag for the general players seems a bit low and was one of the debated topics for the revamp. My thought is that a hike to 40gp would add ~50TV to a medium to large team. This is a small amount, but would help balance the team imo.

Chaos Halfings – 40 (+5)

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Last edited by WhatBall on Sep 11, 2013 - 21:43; edited 1 time in total
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2013 - 18:23 Reply with quote Back to top

***ESHIN***
This roster was "over-costed" more than any other roster based on what my Stunty cost tool said it should be. This was mostly because people feared the old Eshin team that dominated. The new Eshin can dominate, but are too expensive and fragile to maintain for more than a few games. The proposal is that the Adepts would be dropped 5gp in price. Instead of dropping the Night Runner (NR) and Assassin costs, I would rather see AV7 for some durability. This represents their greater skill and status as they approach the level of the Gutter Runners.

Assassin - AV7
NRs - AV7
Adepts - 35 (-5)

Personally, I think the problems are greater than this. Lowering the prices, causes more problems as this is the cheapest or one of the cheapest rosters to make. However to the suggestions:

No to the Assassin. (he's one of the best players around as it is).
Yes to the Night Runners
No to the Adept pricing.


***GNOBLAR***
Gnoblars are very much a viable team now with access to all three ogres. With that, the general line fodder has become a little too reliable. The standard Gnoblars having AV7 just doesn’t seem right for me. They should be somewhere between a Goblin and a Snotling, and AV6 does that nicely. The Bullies and Trappers are fine with AV7 as they are slightly tougher and better equipped.

Gnoblars - AV6

How about AV7 with a price increase? AV6 is ok though.

***SKRYRE***
The dreaded Mechas took it on the chin to avoid them being uber ball carriers. I think it AG1 might have been too much and would like to see them at AG2. They are Skaven who have been engineered, so they should start with AG3 and the cumbersome gear saps 1AG.

Mechavermin - AG2

Definitely no. However dropping the AG wasn't the answer IMO. The position needs a revamp.


***FOREST GOBLIN***
The Forest Goblins have shown they are deadly at low TV, mostly because they have 4 stabbers. They also have Spider Riders for defence, but the Stikkas are plain horrifying for opponents when they work half decent. Three maximum seems like a good balance.

Stikkas - 1-3 players

Hmmmm no for me.......What about upping their price instead?


***CHAOS HALFLINGS***
The Chaos Flings are downright terrifying at high TV when they begin to mutate and can field crazy ballers, nasty cage breakers, and all sorts of utility players. The 35gp price tag for the general players seems a bit low and was one of the debated topics for the revamp. My thought is that a hike to 40gp would add ~50TV to a medium to large team. This is a small amount, but would help balance the team imo.

Chaos Halfings – 40 (+5)

Yes.
TheSyron



Joined: Jun 17, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2013 - 18:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Eshin:

I think that every Eshin player would love the increased AV, which isn't necessarily a good sign. But it could work and I'm not sure how to improve them otherwise without getting them into Skink territory (more MA).

Edit: Making them cheaper will definitely help them early on, though I'm not sure if they need it then. Needs something else at higher tv though, especially since they have trouble getting there now.

Gnoblar:

Roster seems fine to me, somewhere in the middle. Not sure why they need the -AV, although it's a bit weird regular Gnoblar have it. AV6 is definitely more fluffy.

Skryre:

I'm really glad the Mechas are at AG1. I'd rather see some other parts of the roster buffed than the Mechas getting better, they're good enough at their job as it is. I have some ideas, but as the thread is about these particular ideas, I'll refrain from posting them. Razz

Forest Goblin:

Yes.

Chaos Halflings

Sounds good. Mutation access is way better than their 35gp price tag suggests.


Last edited by TheSyron on Jul 30, 2013 - 18:58; edited 1 time in total
baelnic



Joined: May 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2013 - 18:56 Reply with quote Back to top

***ESHIN***


Assassin - AV7
NRs - AV7
Adepts - 35 (-5)

I can't put my finger on what exactly needs change for this team. I'm currently playing it and they either work or they end up with 11 in the injury box. This seems as good of a try as anything.


***GNOBLAR***
Gnoblars - AV6

It could be that my recent Gnoblar grid filling biased me but Gnoblars have the damnedest time staying alive even at av7. I'm not convinced this team is an top tier team and needs adjustment downwards but fluffwise you can't argue that AV7 Basic Gnoblars make sense.


***FOREST GOBLIN***
Stikkas - 1-3 players

Is changing their SW roll an option?



I have no opinion on either Skyre or Chaos Flings as I have limited experience with both teams (although neither roster particularly scares me).
Muktar



Joined: Dec 02, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2013 - 18:57 Reply with quote Back to top

***ESHIN***
This roster was "over-costed" more than any other roster based on what my Stunty cost tool said it should be. This was mostly because people feared the old Eshin team that dominated. The new Eshin can dominate, but are too expensive and fragile to maintain for more than a few games. The proposal is that the Adepts would be dropped 5gp in price. Instead of dropping the Night Runner (NR) and Assassin costs, I would rather see AV7 for some durability. This represents their greater skill and status as they approach the level of the Gutter Runners.

Assassin - AV7
NRs - AV7
Adepts - 35 (-5)

Yes, but as HM said they can already afford everything they want out of the gate. This will help but in my opinion they really need something more. Maybe a look at skill access for some.


***GNOBLAR***
Gnoblars are very much a viable team now with access to all three ogres. With that, the general line fodder has become a little too reliable. The standard Gnoblars having AV7 just doesn’t seem right for me. They should be somewhere between a Goblin and a Snotling, and AV6 does that nicely. The Bullies and Trappers are fine with AV7 as they are slightly tougher and better equipped.

Gnoblars - AV6

Yes


***SKRYRE***
The dreaded Mechas took it on the chin to avoid them being uber ball carriers. I think it AG1 might have been too much and would like to see them at AG2. They are Skaven who have been engineered, so they should start with AG3 and the cumbersome gear saps 1AG.

Mechavermin - AG2

I see no issue with this, yes.

***FOREST GOBLIN***
The Forest Goblins have shown they are deadly at low TV, mostly because they have 4 stabbers. They also have Spider Riders for defence, but the Stikkas are plain horrifying for opponents when they work half decent. Three maximum seems like a good balance.

Stikkas - 1-3 players

With no real way to deal with BG's, NO.


***CHAOS HALFLINGS***
The Chaos Flings are downright terrifying at high TV when they begin to mutate and can field crazy ballers, nasty cage breakers, and all sorts of utility players. The 35gp price tag for the general players seems a bit low and was one of the debated topics for the revamp. My thought is that a hike to 40gp would add ~50TV to a medium to large team. This is a small amount, but would help balance the team imo.

Chaos Halfings – 40 (+5)

Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2013 - 19:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I haven't played enough to say for any of them really, though the Chaos Flings one makes sense to me.

Forest Gobos is a team a played with quite a bit a while ago. the problem is they aren't a great high Tv team. While they are obviously good at low TV if you are making changes in the hope to achieve a greater balance then you need something that makes them weaker as a starter team but better as a top TV team, which is obviously very tough to do. I would be inclined to say no to that change until there is something that makes them a little better a high Tv.

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Cavetroll



Joined: Jan 21, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2013 - 20:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Of the teams listed, the only one I have experience coaching are the Chaos Halflings, so I'll limit my opinions to that race.

I don't like the idea of increasing their cost (yet again). Even with mutation access, they are still halflings. They shouldn't cost the same as a goblin when they have 1 less move and 1 less armor. That's 60 TV of skill decreases for access to mutation.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I don't think this is it. If you are going to raise the cost, perhaps they should start with one of the weaker mutations that coaches rarely take anyway?

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2013 - 20:13 Reply with quote Back to top

C Flings used to be 40k anyway, didn't they?
WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2013 - 20:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Cavetroll wrote:
OThey shouldn't cost the same as a goblin when they have 1 less move and 1 less armor.

You can't make direct comparisons like that. Two players that cost the same can be different, but both work based on their overall roster and how the team plays.

And M access is golden in Stunty. 2heads alone is great, if you get lucky and get a guy like this you are set. Yes, he has 2 +MA rolls, which are not that uncommon, but the other skills are all normal rolls.

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Beerox



Joined: Feb 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2013 - 21:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Agree with all except Mechavermin.
Duder



Joined: Mar 13, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2013 - 21:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Eshin: Anything that encourages more people to use Eshin is a good thing. Some durability and more reasonably priced linemen are both good things in my opinion.

Gnoblar: "They should be somewhere between a Goblin and a Snotling". I think ST 1 already does this. I like that despite being ST 1 little buggers they can still play their part as linemen effectively with their AV. I think it makes for an interesting combo of stats which is unique to Gnoblar. I have not detected Gnoblar as being overpowered and think they are currently a very fun race. I am against this change.

Skyre: No opinion
Forest Goblin: No opinion

Chaos Halflings: From my perspective this race does not need a nerf. My record with them is in the middle of the races(60% with 6 races with better records, 3 about the same and 5 worse). Chaos Flings have a 15% win ratio against me.
Azure



Joined: Jan 30, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2013 - 22:36 Reply with quote Back to top

***GNOBLAR***
Gnoblars - AV6

I do not see this as very good idea. Already Gnoblars are same stat line but 5k more than brownies. Reducing their AV makes them without a doubt the worst linemen in the game. The rest of the team is not nearly good enough to compensate for this.

In particular: ST 1 players are knocked down much more than ST 2 players - as such, the drop in AV from 7 to 6 is felt even more with ST 1 players.

***SKRYRE***
Mechavermin - AG2

If you want to avoid them being ballcarriers, but still allow them to be mobile - just keep them at AG 1, but give them Break Tackle as starting skill.

***FOREST GOBLIN***
Stikkas - 1-3 players

I think 4 is good. Let them have their fun toys to play with Smile

***CHAOS HALFLINGS***
Chaos Halfings – 40 (+5)

Not a big fan of this. If looking to increase cost - I would look at the pieces that are most powerful (chainsaws/big guys) not the linemen for this team.
Cavetroll



Joined: Jan 21, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 30, 2013 - 23:37 Reply with quote Back to top

WhatBall wrote:
Cavetroll wrote:
OThey shouldn't cost the same as a goblin when they have 1 less move and 1 less armor.

You can't make direct comparisons like that. Two players that cost the same can be different, but both work based on their overall roster and how the team plays.

And M access is golden in Stunty. 2heads alone is great, if you get lucky and get a guy like this you are set. Yes, he has 2 +MA rolls, which are not that uncommon, but the other skills are all normal rolls.


I'm just sharing my opinion on the only team I have any real experience with. Sorry everyone thinks they are broken and dominating stunty. I think if you increase the price without giving them something to offset it you'll be visiting this again in the next tweak.

I still think if you are going to increase the price, you could find a mutation that isn't gamebreaking to give them. Distubing Presence would be worth 5k but I can't really think of a fluff reason for it. Horns would probably be better fluff-wise (all those spikey helmets) but may be too much for 5k.

Even with mutations, they are still AV6 stunty linemen and will die a lot. Making them more expensive to replace isn't going to directly translate to a less dominant team in a tournament run. It will just mean they will be harder to rebuild after a bad game and we'll probably see more rebooted teams instead. I don't think that's a good thing.

Here's an honest question for anyone wanting to see Chaos Fling linemen increased in price: would you rather face the current Chaos Fling team in stunty, or would you rather face a grandfathered Halfling team in stunty? You can use any TV (low, medium, high) for your comparison.

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xnoelx



Joined: Jun 05, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 31, 2013 - 00:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Eshin are the team I've played against the least, and iirc, most of those games were before the revamp, so I can only say that AV7 on the Assassin works for me fluff-wise.

Gnoblars; while I don't think they are overly good by any means, again AV6 on a Gnob makes fluff-sense.

Skryre; I'd have to disagree. The fluff suggests that they are more mechanical than living. And at AG2 they are likely to become ball-carriers again. Azure's BT idea does make sense though.

Forest Goblins: I've always had much more trouble from the spiders than the stikkas, personally. I see no reason to remove one. I'd be open to toning the spiders down a little (perhaps losing Shadowing?) to make them less dominant at rookie level.

Cflings; my experience, and the stats available to us, suggest that they aren't that good. The super-lino you use an example is far from common, and rarely lasts when they do develop. They are one of the teams that, on a good day, can be very dominant cas-wise, but (much like CPOMBers in the big leagues) that doesn't translate to a high win percentage.

To be honest, before any changes are made, I'd like to see stats from the EC and FCC, similar to these produced after the Necromiser.

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baelnic



Joined: May 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 31, 2013 - 00:38 Reply with quote Back to top

xnoelx wrote:

To be honest, before any changes are made, I'd like to see stats from the EC and FCC, similar to these produced after the Necromiser.


FCC Stats About halfway down the page

ExC Stats


Btw, if anyone wants to make the stats prettier I can send them my spreadsheets for both tournaments if they'd like to do so. I've got my hands full with S.P.L.A.T. spreadsheets otherwise I'd do it Razz
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