Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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 Posted:
Oct 04, 2013 - 14:07 |
 
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| zakatan wrote: | While horns might be worth 20k on a single player, it's value gets diluted when it becomes a blanket skill, since you can only blitz once per turn.
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QFT
On a Chaos Team with 4 CWs and 7 Bestmen you basically pay 70k for that +ST on the Blitz. That's why Pestigors are 80k although they only have Regen on top. |
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Qaz
Joined: Apr 28, 2004
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| Posted:
Oct 04, 2013 - 14:22 |
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Sure TV is broken and an Lrb Fumbbl could really fix that cause in an automated digital world TV could be counted much more precisely |
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the strongest"
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Cavetroll
Joined: Jan 21, 2009
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| Posted:
Oct 04, 2013 - 15:59 |
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I blame this thread on the American government furlough. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Oct 04, 2013 - 16:24 |
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| Verminardo wrote: | | zakatan wrote: | While horns might be worth 20k on a single player, it's value gets diluted when it becomes a blanket skill, since you can only blitz once per turn.
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QFT
On a Chaos Team with 4 CWs and 7 Bestmen you basically pay 70k for that +ST on the Blitz. That's why Pestigors are 80k although they only have Regen on top. |
Not QFT, its really QFF.
You pay more and can only blitz once per turn, but, you can blitz with any player. The benefit of that in how you position is, indeed, very great.
Unless you're a min/max low tv wankwad 
But even there, that lame team can get a st4 blitz from any beastman, even if not from the designated killer.
In any case, there are multiple solutions to this 'problem'. I'm not sure any of them will ever materialize (outside of L), but it sure is fun to wait for shadow to lock any thread where it gets discussed 
Personally I'd like to see some sort of restriction on the number of skills a player takes from each catagory. G you can take as many skills as you want (also S or A for players who only access those), S, A, P you can only take 1 at normal cost, the 2nd is double cost, and any additional require a doubles and are triple cost.
Of course that's kind of weird to fluff, but meh, at this point does anyone really care about fluff as it pertains to the rules?  |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Oct 04, 2013 - 16:26 |
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You had to get me going on skill costs again, didn't you.
Not doing skills in increments of 5 and not rating them each individually to their worth was lazy game design. Cheaper utility skills and more expensive core skills would have meant more diverse team builds and play styles.
The game is already complex enough that doing a little extra math (for TT) between matches is no big deal. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Oct 04, 2013 - 16:38 |
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| licker wrote: | | at this point does anyone really care about fluff as it pertains to the rules? |
Yes, massively. To me and others fluff adds to the flavour of the game and fluff rules can make the game loads more fun. Now we have a very dumbed down version of the game in which all the fluff was pretty much destroyed in order to make things a little more stream lined and easy to get to grips with the rules.
The game can be fluffy, be more fun than it is now and have a greater balance too. It would just require a lot of work. None of those things are mutually exclusive. |
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BillBrasky
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
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Oct 04, 2013 - 16:42 |
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The whole only 1 blitz per turn, means horns is not under priced at 10k. If you have 11 goats, only one of them can use that skill per turn... |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Oct 04, 2013 - 16:43 |
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Actually you misinterpreted what I meant, but I didn't make it clear.
I realize that many players care about the fluff in the rules, but that whomever has been responsible for the rules themselves doesn't seem to care. So in as much as 'fixing' the rules would ever happen, whomever actually decides on what the fixes would be won't be as bound by adherence to fluff as you or I may wish.
Thus, more technical fixes to an already unfluffy rule set could happen. Does it make the game better is the only real concern for many at this point. |
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Faulcon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Oct 04, 2013 - 17:50 |
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Horns isn't the issue. Horns are like a nice little free extra as soon as you take something like, well maybe guard. Or mighty blow. You know, the sort of skill that pretty much every single beastman will take sooner or later (well except on a dirty min-max box team where all but one killer gets sacked). Compare this to a skink who only gets access to agility for the same 60k and does the value become just a little more apparent? |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Oct 04, 2013 - 17:51 |
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Or a cumulative per-category thing. 20k per skill (normal or double) plus 10k per skill category taken beyond the first. So Block + ClawMB would be +20k, like two of those skills were doubles even if they're not. |
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Faulcon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 04, 2013 - 18:04 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | Or a cumulative per-category thing. 20k per skill (normal or double) plus 10k per skill category taken beyond the first. So Block + ClawMB would be +20k, like two of those skills were doubles even if they're not. |
Something like that sounds pretty good actually. Each player could have a base group (eg all elves might have agility as their primary group and chaos players strength) but could still take skills from the other listed groups without rolling a double but for the price of a double.
eg, a wardancer might take on a normal roll sidestep (ag skill) for 20k or tackle (general skill) for 30k but would still need to roll a double for mighty blow.
A beastman would be able to get claw, po, mb with 3 normal rolls but would have to pay 30k for claw as it isn't a strength skill and would need to pay 30k to get block or tackle. And they would still need to roll a double if they wanted dodge or jump up. |
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oryx
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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Oct 04, 2013 - 18:16 |
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I think that if human teams could pay a flat +70 tv price and be able to have a str4 blitz under any circumstance, they'd happily jump on the bandwagon... Definitely worth more than 70k, imo (which to be fair I'm not the best player out there, so take it for what it's worth).
What really gets me is comparing tv with effectiveness.
Let's take a few nicely built beastmen comparisons
beast - block, tackle, mb, guard, 2heads - 160
human lineman - block, tackle, mb, guard, +ag - 190
human blitzer - block, tackle, mb, guard, +ag - 190
orc blitzer - block, tackle, mb, guard, +ag - 180
dwarven blitzer - block, tackle, mb, guard, +ag - 180
Now these players are very similar. Aside from the 1 ma/av difference, I'd say that in most circumstances, the only difference is that the beastman gets +st on the blitz and costs 30k less. When it comes to picking up, passing, and intercepting, there is admittedly a 16% difference... But if you're playing skillfully and to your strengths, I don't think that this player is really the guy to do those things.
Note that this makes the beastman cheaper and, in a tv-maximized world, equal to or perhaps better, than the blitzer positionals on orc, dwarf, and human teams. Furthermore, the beastman doesn't need any doubles or special rolls to get there.
I think that other comparisons also show that beastmen basically get free +1 str on teh blitz - which is a huge advantage - and are often cheaper than similarly skilled equivalents - but I'm too lazy to write them all out.
And, Zakatan, I hear what you're saying, but basically the human lino function is not only to be a meatshield, but also (at high tv, anyway) to roll doubles for guard, get block and tackle, and act as an auxiliary positional. Which they do... But not nearly as cheaply or as effectively as a beastman with similar skills. |
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oryx
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 04, 2013 - 18:46 |
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I also feel that str4 is the most important to have on the blitz. When it comes to blocking, a lot of str3 can be guarded into (effectively) str4. It isn't the ability to have str4 on the blitz which makes beastman linos so powerful... it's the ability to have str4 from anywhere on the pitch.
Basically, beastmen are positional grade linos. Chaos should have 0-4 warriors, 0-4 beasts, and cultists.
Why indeed didn't they give nurgle pestigor linos? =D because they're positional grade! |
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dode74
Joined: Aug 14, 2009
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| Posted:
Oct 04, 2013 - 18:55 |
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| Quote: | | Note that this makes the beastman cheaper and, in a tv-maximized world, equal to or perhaps better, than the blitzer positionals on orc, dwarf, and human teams. Furthermore, the beastman doesn't need any doubles or special rolls to get there. |
They're not meant to be matched in this manner. They are costed according to value within the team at 1000TV. |
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oryx
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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Oct 04, 2013 - 18:58 |
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I also feel that str4 is the most important to have on the blitz. When it comes to blocking, a lot of str3 can be guarded into (effectively) str4. It isn't the ability to have str4 on the blitz which makes beastman linos so powerful... it's the ability to have str4 from anywhere on the pitch.
Basically, beastmen are positional grade linos. Chaos should have 0-4 warriors, 0-4 beasts, and cultists.
Why indeed didn't they give nurgle pestigor linos? =D because they're positional grade! |
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