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Bullroarer4



Joined: Oct 22, 2012

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 18:24 Reply with quote Back to top

with the recent Fumbbl Cup coming down to a mirror match between two skaven teams, i have started a skaven team. while plasmoids does have an excellent playbook, what are some of the finer points in managing and developing a successful skaven franchise?

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WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 18:29 Reply with quote Back to top

1. Roll +MA on your Gutters.
2. Keep them alive

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Overhamsteren



Joined: May 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 18:39 Reply with quote Back to top

The natural one turner is definitely a great leveler of the play field against the 2-1 stall grind teams. Surprised

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 18:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Bullroarer4 wrote:
with the recent Fumbbl Cup coming down to a mirror match between two skaven teams, i have started a skaven team. while plasmoids does have an excellent playbook, what are some of the finer points in managing and developing a successful skaven franchise?


thanks Smile

finer points, protect your key players, hit and run. gutter runners develop in certain ways depending on the stats they get, not the other way round. I think its all covered in the play book really. the rest is just experience.

Skaven are an amazing tournament team mind. The natural OTT players make beating them a nightmare. and Wizards are just amazing for them.

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albinv



Joined: Sep 15, 2012

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 19:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting post! My Skaven rambling/ talk:

I've always seen myself as a skaven coach mainly. I've come to the conclusion that this might not be as true as i thought and i might have been fooling myself.
Their ability to play (to some extent!) everything that other BB races can play, sometimes leaves me in a mess - having many options available doesnt have to make it easier.
So i end up quite often being frustrated with them and playing races that have less options available.

Most probably i've never broken through to that point were i felt really confident with them. However i believe in them and have a big place in my heart for skaven and i dont want to be an on-off skaven coach anymore. So this thread comes in really handy!

Im a bit disappointed about the first replies. Of course, the plasmoid playbook is great and most is covered there. Also BB is best learned a bit intuitive i think, so you never have the big detailed discussions on tactics that you wish for - let alone plays.

But i feel you making it sound all a bit simple/ one-dimensional and as if all there was to them is building a one turner and protect him. Which isnt true at all looking at the many possible options skaven give you.
If you decide so, they might be even one of the more complex races i reckon (of course you can also decide to just score quick and easy and dont do much more else).

Anyway - i really hope this thread will get some traffic and good insights! Smile


Last edited by albinv on Dec 06, 2013 - 19:42; edited 2 times in total
Anzelak



Joined: Nov 26, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 19:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Don't roll 1s.

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happygrue



Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 19:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Getting wins with Skaven is like stealing candy from minnows swiming in a small barrel. But I think they make people into sloppy coaches. Play harder stuff to get better, then take those lessons and make a Skaven team when you want to win stuff.

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Overhamsteren



Joined: May 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 19:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Practicing 'the coin toss' is a good idea too. Razz

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albinv



Joined: Sep 15, 2012

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 20:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Oh, man we're getting a lot of cheesy love er? Just what i expected Laughing

Why dont we start talking about Norse then f.i. huh?

Well, er...wait, actually lets better dont! ^^
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 20:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Skaven?

CPOMB 2x Blitzer
MA10 sprint 1x gutter

Win!
Smeat



Joined: Nov 19, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 20:32 Reply with quote Back to top

albinv wrote:
Anyway - i really hope this thread will get some traffic and good insights! Smile

As soon as stand-up comedy amateur hour is over... Wink

Garion wrote:
finer points, protect your key players, hit and run.

Hard to protect more than 1-3 players, esp while trying to run a decent defense, even a "pressure to score fast" and not a "stonewall" defense.

Rats usually have at least 2 GR's on defense (which I can see as "hit and run" and so kept safe-ish), but any other "key player"... pretty much either they're helping or they're safe, hard to do both and have any D, esp while already keeping those GR's safe.

Garion wrote:
I think its all covered in the play book really. the rest is just experience.

A new coach I know is starting a new skaven team, and has LOTS of questions, so... in your experience...

    1) Rogre or Nogre? Or does TV/supporting cast make the cutpoint to include/exclude the BG? Or playstyle, opponents (in League/picking)?

    b) You list 3 diff key GR builds - Ballhawk, Ball-Retreiver, and a "Man-Marker", each w/ diff starting skills - what's the 4th build?

    b.1) How do you (best) "protect" a man-marker? By his nature he lives dangerously, no? :/

    iii) You downplay a OTS GR in the .pdf*, yet admit above he's a nightmare for the opposition... ???

      (* Starting the section with the caveat that "Going out of my way to make a one turn touchdown specialist is not something I have ever really done with any race...")

Anything else that "experience" might provide that is not obvious at face value, esp after that .pdf has had some time to settle?

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MisterFurious



Joined: Aug 11, 2010

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 20:34 Reply with quote Back to top

1. Give the first Linerat that skills up Kick. Try your best to keep him alive.

2. Your Linerats that don't have Kick or some stat boost are expendable. Don't think twice about throwing them under the bus to help the team. They'll die in droves, but that's what they're there for.

3. Learn how to chain push a Gutter Runner. There's a guide in the Help section.

4. Don't forget to score touchdowns with your Blitzers. They really need SPP's and can score touchdowns pretty easily with 7 MV and 3 AG, but it's easy to forget that and score with your Gutter Runners all the time.

5. Protect your Blitzers more than anyone else. Even though Gutter Runners are your best players and the core of the team, they skill up quickly so it's not the end of the world if one dies or gets retired. Blizters on the other hand, will skill up much slower and they need skills to be really good. Don't let them get hit if you can help it. Protect your Gutter Runners, too, but make them second priority after your Blitzers.

6. Just because you can score in one or two turns, doesn't mean you always should. Think twice before crossing the end zone early on. After you score, you'll be kicking off and taking a beating. It might be best to stall.

7. When kicking off, set up to take advantage of a Blitz! if it comes up. If you turn a Blitz! into a touchdown, you've probably won the game. (I blitzed a guy four times in one game with a Skaven team. I almost felt bad about it. Almost.)

8. Rat Ogres really aren't worth it. They boost your TV too much for what they do. Getting inducements like a Wizard or Babes or a Star Player will usually help you out more than an AV 8 Wild Animal that will spend most of his time roaring in rage or laying in your KO or Injury box. You can take one if you really want one, as they aren't truly awful and they can sometimes do some damage, but most of the time they are ineffective for their cost. If you do want to take one, take it early (don't start with it) and use it until it gets hurt or dies and don't replace it. The higher up in TV you go, the more effective the bashy teams will be and with skills like Guard and Mighty Blow all over the place, taking out an AV 8 guy, even one with 5 ST, isn't going to be hard. That'll be a LOT of TV laying in your Injury box. You can have three Linerats for the same price.

9. Start with 4 Gutter Runners, 2 Blitzers, 1 Thrower, 4 Linerats, 3 Rerolls (probably all you'll ever need), and an Apothecary. Skaven have one of the easiest and best starting line ups of any team. Don't start with a Rat Ogre. Your team won't be developed enough to compensate for it's stupidity and unreliability. Skaven win lots of games and get lots of money, so you should have enough for a Rat Ogre pretty quickly if you want one, particularly since you have all of your positionals, rerolls, and an Apothecary right from the get go.

10. Accept the fact that every once in a while you are going to have a bad game were your entire team is blasted off the pitch in the first half. It's going to happen and there's nothing you can do about it but suck it up and soldier on to the next game. Skaven can usually recover from a horrible game and not get stuck in that Death Spiral were one bad games leads to another and then another and then another until you have to retire like Elves will sometimes get stuck in. Skaven are cheap and all you need are some Gutter Runners to win.

11. Don't feel bad when you do a One Turn Touchdown and win a game that you really shouldn't have. That's just what Skaven do. Some teams win by smashing the other team off the pitch. Some teams win by doing the 2-1 Grind. Some teams win by scoring lots of touchdowns. Your opponents will probably whine and complain about it, but, hey, it's up to them to do what they can to stop it. Do those Orc, Chaos, or Dwarf players feel bad when they kill half your team? Nope. Why should you feel bad for doing what your team was designed to do?

12. Don't get foul happy with them. With cheap Linerats and just by the simple fact that the team is made up of dirty rats, it may seem like Skaven are a great Fouling team, but the reality is that you're more often than not going to be down on players and you usually can't afford to have Linerats getting banned. Foul surgically and hit juicy targets. If you find yourself up in players later in the game, you can loosen up and give the boot more often, but early in the game, just foul key players of the opponent's team. Foul with the assumption that that Linerat is going to get banned and the guy you're booting is only going to get stunned and consider if that's worth the risk.

13. The bigger your bench, the better...up to a point. Your Linerats will get hurt during the game and having replacements is great. If you can run 14 guys on your team and not suffer the effects of high TV, then do it. If you can run 15 comfortably, then do it. I ran a 15 man team for a while on another site and it was fantastic. I was usually able to field 11 players in the second half. The problem, though, is that your TV gets high and you will get Spiraling Expenses and you may also not be getting the Inducements that you could get if you had a 13 man squad. Early on, keep hiring guys until you get up to 14 or 15 and then run that until you start feeling the effects. If you start feeling the effects of Spiraling Expenses and it's hurting your treasury, cut a guy. If you find yourself thinking 'I ALMOST had enough for a Wizard' a lot, cut a guy. Until then, run 14 or 15. Always keep a spot or two open for Star Players. Skaven have one of the best selection of Star Players to choose from, plus they're expendable players that you can throw in harm's way and not care if they die.

14. A lot of people think that Throwers aren't needed, but Throwers are Linerats with Sure Hands, Passing, and Passing Skill access for 20k more. That's really good value and makes it worth taking at least one. A Thrower with Leader is 20k less TV than a Team Reroll would cost you. They have Sure Hands which helps against teams with Strip Ball. They're some of the best Throwers in the game as well, having 7 MV and Pass and Sure Hands. No, you don't NEED a Thrower, but it does add some value to your team, value that's worth the 20k extra.

15. Three Team Rerolls is probably all you'll need. If you need another, take Leader on a Thrower and save 20k. Skaven can coast on fewer Rerolls than other teams because Skaven don't make as many rolls as most other teams and usually have built in Rerolls for when they do. Bashy teams throw lots of Block Dice and the more Block Dice you throw, the more likely Skulls are going to come up, which means a Reroll will be used. Bashy teams will also find themselves doing lots of GFI's. Elf teams and Stunty teams will do lots of dodges and Elves can do a lot of pick ups and passes, too, often with guys that don't have Pass, Catch, or Sure Hands. The Elves have AG 4, but 1's do happen and most Elves don't have Dodge and few have Pass or Catch. That means Rerolls. Stunty's dodge a lot and have Dodge, but they're usually only AG 3. The Skaven team doesn't block as much as a bashy team and won't be dodging as much as an Elf team and most dodging will be done by Gutter Runners that are AG 4 and have Dodge. They also don't need to GFI as much as other teams. That all means less dice rolled and the less dice rolled, the less likely you'll need a Reroll.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 20:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Smeat wrote:


1) Rogre or Nogre? Or does TV/supporting cast make the cutpoint to include/exclude the BG? Or playstyle, opponents (in League/picking)?

b) You list 3 diff key GR builds - Ballhawk, Ball-Retreiver, and a "Man-Marker", each w/ diff starting skills - what's the 4th build?

b.1) How do you (best) "protect" a man-marker? By his nature he lives dangerously, no? :/

iii) You downplay a OTS GR in the .pdf*, yet admit above he's a nightmare for the opposition... ???


All those questions are answered in the book. Smile

3 I will elaborate here, as I say in the playbook - They are very good etc.. but I like mine to be involved in the game in other ways too, giving it utility skills etc.. plus even if you do not give a +Ma rat sprint it is stupidly easy to get that 1 push, pow or push pow.

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Smeat



Joined: Nov 19, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 21:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Thx Mr. F - +1 Rep!

Garion wrote:
All those questions are answered in the book. Smile

Um... no, actually, not specifically they're not.


1) Rogre or Nogre?

You say this is personal pref - mmm... okay. But you don't mention higher/lower TV's, or skills that help him. Any insight that "experience" brings, and might share?


b) what's the 4th build?

You list a OTS BUT in the same breath say you would not go out of your way to build it. So w/o +MA, #4 is... generic, wait and see?


b.1) How do you (best) "protect" a man-marker?

Generally, perhaps, but again not specifically. His job is to mark a key player (hopefully w/ an additional assist or three), but that's still asking for a block or blitz...


iii) OTS

sim - you seem less than enthused about this as a "4th build" - or are you just downplaying the focus, not the build itself?
(EDIT - cross edit, answered in your "elaboration" above, thx!)


Not asking you to rewrite the book, just expand a little on it, esp w/ any clarity that "hindsight" might have added to your experience.

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(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...)
Overhamsteren



Joined: May 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 06, 2013 - 23:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Rat ogres need doubles, go offensive claw+pro/jump up or defensive block+dodge. Probably offensive.

Best Major winning rat ogre ever:

Sam Axe

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