licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Dec 08, 2013 - 04:59 |
 
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If you want a competitive skaven team you should strive for CPOMB.
I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make otherwise.
Like or don't like CPOMB it is the best way to win games as skaven. Gutters don't need that much help to score, but the team in general needs help to keep as many players around as possible. That's where the CPOMB comes in. It's not so much the trick to winning a game, it's the trick to giving you the best chance to win over the long run.
Also why you want 2 of them. When one POs the other is still up.
What's the difference between playing skaven and playing various elf teams?
You lack AG4 (and A access) on your line rats, but you have players capable of (easy and cheap) player removal. If you want to ignore that that's your business, but if you want to give good advice on how to win with skaven then you need to take the CPOMB.
With all due respect to cyric who is a great skaven coach (and loves the claw himself), there is another great coach who's skaven teams all cpomb up like mad. I'm trusting Azure on this one  |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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Dec 08, 2013 - 05:38 |
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Yes, you should always take Claw and MB on your Vermins imho. Stacking it with PO, is a different thing imho. Anyway, we're really through with that discussion now, all is said about it, more than once.
You made some good and valuable points. |
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Hitonagashi
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
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Dec 08, 2013 - 06:04 |
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I'm not 100% convinced by people who constantly use PO on the Skaven Blitzers (with C/MB).
I can only speak as someone who plays against them, but whenever a skaven blitzer PO's near me, I do my darnedest to make sure he doesn't get up again.
That doesn't always involve fouling - I frequently save the Kroxigor back and wait for the PO, then park him next to the downed blitzer. Skaven teams lack guard (especially the ogreless ones), so sticking some ST 4-5 fodder next to the PO'ed blitzer is really effective at either forcing him to blitz fodder, or marking him out of the drive. If they are dumb enough to then PO with their reserve, you mark that one too!
The thing is, you are frequently blitzing into enemy lines, and I'd say you want to withdraw a lot of the time. The problem with trusting Azure is that almost nobody on this site is like Azure. Top coaches belong in a very specific subset, where they are good enough to know when it's safe to PO, and when it's not to. Saying "just take PO" will get weaker coaches (who are the only ones who need this advice) in trouble.
Personally, theoretically, I like - Claw/Mighty Blow/Tackle/Guard/PO (note that order). That said, I've been known to purposefully take weaker builds to build my team up faster... |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Dec 08, 2013 - 06:27 |
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I could not disagree more hito.
Of course you don't just spam PO, but it is such a powerful tool that ignoring it simply doesn't make sense. Beyond that, taking the kill stack means your blitzers skill more quickly to add whatever else you want to add (tackle on one at least, frenzy is great as well, fend if you are fearful, jump up if you get doubles...)
If you need to learn how to apply it then you need to use it and learn how to apply it (or not).
Besides, it's really not that hard to keep your blitzer safe after they PO, you don't always need to hit the 'best' target, you just need to hit a target. Do that every turn and your gutters start to see a lot more daylight. If the opponent is going to go out of their way to blitz off a screen and mark/foul your downed blitzer then that's all the more room your other blitzer and (hopefully) wrackle gutter will have to pressure the ball out.
Like elfs, rats don't mind playing 7v7 so long as they have their gutters on the pitch. |
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cyric612
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Dec 08, 2013 - 16:44 |
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I'm not saying clawpomb isn't great on the team I just never seem to manage to get one I always get some other skill roll or i can't get the double for a blitzer heh I would like to try them out. I think it just shows the versatility of the team that even without it they can still be good. Looking at it I could probably really be dangerous if I ever managed to get 2 clawpombers on one rat team lol. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Dec 08, 2013 - 17:26 |
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I've never managed to get it either, though my only skaven team is only 50-60 games played.
I drool over it though, because it allows the team that much more flexibility. I've also only had a one turner for like 4-5 games and he rarely had to one turn. But in facing them against other skaven teams it really changes the normal dynamic. At higher TVs you can have enough side steppers/stand firm to make you immune to the push one turns, but there is no defense other than 1s against the natural one turner.
And those two things are the two things that separate skaven from other ag4 teams. Sure any team with MA8 can get a natural one turner too, but it's much more rare as it requires 2 +MAs and sprint on one player (WE catchers at least start with sprint). Skaven can do it with one MA on a gutter. You can't plan for it, but you can expect it to come at some point.
Same for the clawpomb. Any team can pomb, though some require multiple doubles. Only a few can clawpomb, and for CD and necro it still requires doubles, as it does for the skaven. But when you play against those high AV cage/bash teams having that additional punch makes a gigantic difference in how you can approach the game. And if the cpomb isn't coming through you still have your eventual ball stealing gutter to throw in at some point.
But the reason the player removal is so important is that it tends to keep the numbers on the pitch closer. Skaven can do just fine down a couple rats, but once they start getting down 4+ it becomes much more difficult to protect the important players and to harass the cage. CPOMB blitzers sometimes let you even get up players, but their real benefit is in keeping the numbers mostly even through out, as you have to expect to lose your line rats and even a gutter or two who's going to get blitzed now and then. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Dec 08, 2013 - 17:46 |
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PO works best when it comes with support. Skaven are singularly bad at that, but a lucky streak can mean that you can maintain it, if you're smart about cash. I think MB/Tackle/Guard (Claw on doubles) is smart, because then you can use them for whatever's clever, rather than always having to blitz from the same direction all the time. Having one ClawPOMBer is awesome if ClawPOMB is doing its thing. It's less awesome if it gets him isolated because he can't provide a zone and all the guys around him go splat. Even if the inevitable foul doesn't get him, he ends up pinned down and useless, or gets hurt trying to get away, or you bet the farm on getting him a blitz to safety, or something else happens that's unlikely to go happily. Guard on a cog gets him hit. Guard on a protected guy helps protect him even better. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Dec 08, 2013 - 18:24 |
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PO works best when you're not stupid about using it.
Not taking PO because you are scared about using it means...
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Dec 08, 2013 - 22:30 |
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Means I'd rather have Guard. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Dec 08, 2013 - 22:51 |
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Guard on the player(s) you intend to blitz with every turn doesn't have the same return in my opinion.
Not that there's anything wrong with guard, but meh, skaven and elfs do ok without having a lot of it. They have other tools they need to use. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Dec 09, 2013 - 00:59 |
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Ah, I find that the player I intend to blitz with often ends up near the action. Being able to stick him on the interior of a formation, where his Guard will be maximum use, is a great help, especially since it often means he'll be zoned up and ready to block next turn, or I can use his Guard to free him from the scrum so he can blitz again. |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Dec 09, 2013 - 01:14 |
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The skaven blitzer is a player who should not normally seek to be next to anyone. Depending on the team obviously, but AV8 isn't that safe. Better to blitz and retreat, eschewing PO if the position calls for it, or you are blitzing targets which are 'safe' to PO on.
Skaven are a different beast than your zons for example, and I note that you have very little experience actually playing skaven, at least on fumbbl. Guard is certainly not a bad skill, but you only have 3 players who can take it on a normal, and one of those is the Rat Ogre who is simply not a very good mobile guard, and mobile guard is what you seek. You are never going to line up and slug it out with other teams when you play skaven (well there are always an exception or two). Your game plan should be far more surgical than that. Line up the target for your killers to kill, use your super fast gutters to play keep away or to set up screens, and hope your line rats make enough dodges and armor rolls to not have to stand toe to toe with anything. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Dec 09, 2013 - 02:49 |
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Oh, totally. Guard on a C/MB player (or on a POMBer) is for coverage formations, so they can make it harder to hit the guy on the outside of their position and keep themselves free to blitz without making themselves irrelevant in coverage. I'm not advocating staying manned up to use the Guard in a blocking war, like Orcs do, but rather noting that you'd so often rather not follow, the ability to reposition with Guard will get more mileage than the ability to PO. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Dec 09, 2013 - 02:58 |
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| albinv wrote: | Also isnt it interesting that cyric612 for example seems to be doing rather good without (ranked #68 )?
cyric612
| Quote: | | On rat blitzers i'd rather have them up and able to use the mv 7 to get where i need them. |
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Winning the FUMBBL cup was certainly rather good. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Dec 09, 2013 - 03:20 |
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Indeed, but he'll tell you as much as anyone that he was 'helped' by his natural 1-turner.
Also if you look at his blitzers you'll notice he did have a pomber (though no claw), but I don't know at what point that guy was around on the team.
The natural 1-turner is incredibly valuable, and you can win games by just protecting him and trusting that you can steal it at the end with a series of 2+ and 3+. That's more the one game mode of thinking rather than the longer string of games, but if your 1-turner lasts long enough... |
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