| Poll |
| Do i set up a maximum of tourneys that count per coach/team and year? |
| Yes! 12 tourneys per coach and year it is enough |
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23% |
[ 11 ] |
| Yes but i think the number of tournaments that count should be... |
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23% |
[ 11 ] |
| No! leave it like it is now |
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21% |
[ 10 ] |
| TOP25? Ranks? what the hell you are talking about? leave me alone! |
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31% |
[ 15 ] |
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| Total Votes : 47 |
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sonrises
Joined: May 02, 2013
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 Posted:
Jun 20, 2014 - 10:08 |
 
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Hi all,
I have been contacted several times and kindly asked to explain the point allocation criteria for the TOP 25 rankings.
Find final version below:
POINT ALLOCATION CRITERIA ***Final Version***
1. FUMBBL OFFICIAL TOURNAMENTS that qualify for the rankings are split in 4 categories as follows:
**FUMBBL CUP...Tier 1 tournament
**MAJORS...Tier 2 tournaments. This include WO, UI, GLT and LCH in Ranked division and WoC, BC and CoS in Box division.
**MINOR SERIES...Tier 3 tournaments. This include XFL and Ranked Minor in [R] division and Box Minor in Box division.
**STANDARD MINORS...Tier 4 tournaments. This include SMACK, Scheduled SMACK, RRR in [R] division and BRAWLS in Box division
2. I took same point sequence as the ATP uses for its MAJOR Tournaments. This is: 10-45-90-180-360-720-1200-2000
3. I match this sequence to number of wins that any coach had in any given official FUMBBL Tournament throughout 2014. As i only keep track of teams winning at least 2 games in a given tournament, this works out like this: 2w-10 points//3w-45 points//4w-90 points//5w-180 points//6w-360 points//7w-720 points//8w-1200 points//9w-2000 points
4. I allocate a fix 10 point bonus to any team that gets 2 wins or more in FUMBBL CUP or any other MAJOR tournament.
5. I allocate a fix 5 point bonus to any team that gets 2 wins or more in a MINOR SERIES
6. I allocate a fix bonus to teams winning a title. It goes like that: 2 Rnd title=5 pts//3 Rnd title=9 pts//
4 Rnd title=18 pts//5 Rnd title=36 pts//6 Rnd title=36 pts//7 Rnd title=36 pts//8 Rnd title=36 pts// 9 Rnd title=30 pts.
7. FUMBBL CUP WINNER will have an extra BONUS of 190 points.
8. MAJOR winners will have an extra BONUS of 90 points.
9. MINOR SERIES winners will have an extra BONUS of 45 points.
10. Any Tournament where brackets go beyond 4 Rnds, will get same fix bonus as described in point 6 for those teams getting at least 4 wins, even though these teams have not won any tournament.
11. All Majors counted
12. ONLY 10 best Minors (both Series or standard combined) results counted
13. Only tournaments that FINISH within the calendar year will be counted for that particular year Rankings. |
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liquidorange
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 20, 2014 - 13:46 |
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Honestly, I would weight major tournament wins a little more heavily than minor tournament wins. From what I gather under rule 6, winning a qualifier in a major counts exactly the same as winning a four-round minor championship. Based on the level of competition that enters majors, I would add considerably more weight to the latter. Just my thoughts.
Also, I think it's cool as hell that you thought to do this.  |
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sonrises
Joined: May 02, 2013
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| Posted:
Jun 20, 2014 - 14:20 |
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Hi liquidorange,
Thanks for your nice comments on the rankings! 
In the example you post it, the difference it is just 10 points.
The major qualifier winner of an 16 teams bracket will get 10 points more than a 16 teams bracket RRR winner for example. so, It is true there is no much difference.
However, the Ranks put enphasis on WINS rather than the tourney category. Higher rewards go to coaches achiwing long runs of wins in any Official tournaments.
also note that, rule 10 benefits coaches getting good results in MAJORS and MINOR SERIES against those winning a Standard minor as standard minors brackets never go beyond 4 RNDS.
Moreover, Winning a MAJOR or any 5 RND tournament gives you very generous rewards in BONUS.
So, as i said, the enphasis is not in the tournament category but in the quality of a coach's performance in an Official tournament, mesuring quality of performance by number of wins achieved.
Thanks again!
o/ |
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liquidorange
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 20, 2014 - 14:37 |
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I guess I was getting at the fact that the quality of competition is greater in majors. Kind of like equating a win in the World Cup to a win in the MLS Cup Playoffs. They're both wins, but the quality of competition is dramatically different. |
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sonrises
Joined: May 02, 2013
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| Posted:
Jun 20, 2014 - 16:11 |
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Hi,
I understand your point and to be honest, i used to think exactly the same as you, but at some point i changed my mind.
As i have a deep insight on the data related to tournaments, i realised that:
1. Quality of competition: The level of competition is not that different between a Major and a Minor. Coaches playing official tourneys tend to be veteran FUMBBL coaches with a good level.
Many of the coaches getting good runs in Majors, are found in minors in regular basis.
Differences between majors and minors is more the length of a tournament. and length of a tournament helped me to find a way to differenciate tournaments and the rewards associated.
2. i tried to find a way to reward good performances in MAJORS without sticking to tournament name. How? By numbers of wins. The tournaments with higher competition last for longer. You need more rounds to win the whole thing. So, you can get more wins than in a normal minor and a good reward in points in consequence.
An example:
***If you play SMACKs or BRAWLS the max you can get is 54 points as they are 8 teams tournaments (3 rnds max)
***If you play RRR the max is 108 points (4 rnds)
As MINOR SERIES and MAJORS quite easily have 5 to 7 rounds and even in some cases 8 rnds, once you hit 5 wins in one of these tournaments your point reward is much higher than the one you can get in a standard minor.
****After 5 wins you lose your 6th game (let's say the final) of a MAJOR. 5 wins in a MAJOR will give you 226 points, without winning the tournament compared to a SMACK/BRAWL winner (54 points) or a RRR winner (108 points)
****After 6 wins you lose your 7th game (let's say the final) of a MAJOR. 6 wins in a MAJOR will give you 406 points, without winning the tournament compared to a SMACK/BRAWL winner (54 points) or a RRR winner (108 points)
****After 7 wins you lose your 8th game (let's say the final) of a MAJOR. 7 wins in a MAJOR will give you 766 points, without winning the tournament compared to a SMACK/BRAWL winner (54 points) or a RRR winner (108 points)
I thought this to be better. MAJORS gives you the chance to get a good lot of points because they last longer.
However, i thought that If you lose in a 3-4 rnd of a major is not that different to losing in a 3-4 rnd minor, so points could be quite similar. Still you get a few more points losing in a 3 rnd major than in a 3rd rnd minor.
thx again for your comments as it gives me the chance to explain and improve the ranks.
o/ |
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Cavetroll
Joined: Jan 21, 2009
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| Posted:
Jun 20, 2014 - 17:16 |
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I like the idea of the best 8 tourneys being counted. |
_________________
nerf indigo 2016 |
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sonrises
Joined: May 02, 2013
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| Posted:
Jun 20, 2014 - 17:44 |
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Hi Cavetroll,
In this respect at the moment it works like this:
1. All majors counted
2. Only 10 best minors counted ( minor series and standard minors are equal at this respect)
o/ |
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Cavetroll
Joined: Jan 21, 2009
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| Posted:
Jun 20, 2014 - 18:03 |
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Ok, that makes more sense. |
_________________
nerf indigo 2016 |
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sonrises
Joined: May 02, 2013
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2014 - 11:49 |
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Hi,
I have been questioned about how "Black Box BRAWL Birthday Bash" will be awarded points as it uses SWISS or ROUND ROBIN format plus Play-off.
There we go:
1. BRAWL birthday bash will be considered a "standard minor"
For the SWISS or ROUND ROBIN stage i follow this criteria:
1. I count wins and i follow normal criteria
2. Every 2 draws count as a win. i.e. 2 draws=1 win, 3 draws= 1 win, 4 draws=2 wins
3. Losses are overlooked
So in a tournament with 5 swiss rounds a team had 1 win-2 draws-2 losses = 2 wins = 10 pts.
If then there's a ko format for the best teams, i add wins the normal way. |
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Rabe
Joined: Jun 06, 2009
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2014 - 12:02 |
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Good solution, I like it. |
_________________
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DaCoach
Joined: Jul 22, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2014 - 13:05 |
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Really appreciate the work sonrises.
Another suggestion, for later: adapt more to ATP and have a year window of points rather than a calender year, so that points expire. |
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sonrises
Joined: May 02, 2013
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2014 - 14:02 |
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| DaCoach wrote: | | Another suggestion, for later: adapt more to ATP and have a year window of points rather than a calender year, so that points expire. |
it is in my to-do list but i am still looking for a easy way to do it.
When i checked first time, it was not as straight forward as it might look. Specially for standard minors.
i need to give it some more thinking.
o/ |
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sonrises
Joined: May 02, 2013
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| Posted:
Apr 22, 2015 - 10:33 |
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Hi coaches,
Last 2 weeks, and while playing games, 2 coaches asked me about the ranks and made some comments/critics about its value as ranking system and so on.
Don't get me wrong, these 2 discussions were nice and sensible, however i felt that there are some misunderstandings about how the ranks work and where they come from.
The most repeated argument against its value was "as you use absolute values, this favours coaches playing intensively tournaments. A true ranking would use relative values to the number of tournaments/games played"
mmmmm...somehow you are right, but not really. Yes, playing a lot of tournaments will help you to score points but will NOT guarantee you a Top position in the ranks.
Ok, let's start from the beginning:
1. First of all, to set up a ranking based on a relative ratio i.e. games won/ games played, is boyond my reach.
2. The real target of the ranks is FLUFF. To give coaches an extra goal when playing tournaments, all types of tournaments not just Majors. In any way was intended to come up with a mathematical equation of greatness. However, there are examples in real life sports were rankings are used in pro sports. 2 good examples, ATP tennis and PGA golf where some nice mathematical sequencies have been implemented to evaluate player's performance throughout a season. TOP 25 ranks are based on ATP system.
Now, let's see how they actually work and see how much they favour coaches playing tournaments only.
the basic sequence used is this one:
10-45-90-180-360-720-1200 points
that equals to
2-3-4-5-6-7-8 wins
This is the root sequence. Then some bonus are added to adjust values to winning a tournament or not, the quality of the tournament and so on. However, 80-90% of the points scored are based on the root sequence.
Secondly and equally important. Except 8 tournaments (all majors), the rest of tournaments are considered MINORS. Only 10 best results in minors tournaments are counted.
Now, let's have a look how the FUMBBL tournament circuit works.
We have 8 MAJORS per season. These tournaments are widely recognised as top tournaments where best teams and coaches interested in tournaments play. All these tournaments count for the ranks without limit.
THE MINORS:
Here the hot point.
We have XFL. Around 15 to 18 XFL start each season aprox. They start in groups of 3 at the time and are race restricted. Very, very unlikely that a coach can apply to all of them. My guess would be that the coach that play the most is below 10 XFL per year.
RANKED/BOX MINORS. Around 10 to 15 per each tournament and season in groups of 2 or 3 at the same time. They are team TV restricted. Very, very unlikely that a coach can apply to all of them. My guess would be that the coach that play the most is below 5 of each per year.
RRR. Around 20-30 per season. One at the time. Rookie teams only. My guess in this case, below 12 per season.
BRAWLS & SMACKS. 50 to 100 of these tournaments a year each. Some rewstrictations apply in smacks. No guess.
LOOKING INTO a theoretical example:
Now, let's consider that a coach play a lot of tournaments. For example, let's say that coach A plays (and this is an extreme example, there is not coach in FUMBBL that plays this amount of tournaments ,not even close.):
*8 MAJORS
*10 XFL
*5 RANKED MINORS
*5 BOX MINORS
*12 RRR
*20 SMACKS
*20 BRAWLS
In the example above:
Coach A will score points in ALL MAJORS as long as he gets at least 2 wins in all these tournaments. In other words, 8 shots to score points, 2 wins needed though.
THE MINORS:
Coach A, in the example, played 72 MINOR tournaments that season. 72? my god, no coach in fumbbl gets close to that, there is no time to play all this unless he always loses in 1st round...and if this was the case he gets 0 points. Playing 72 tournaments would mean 72 games minimum! schedueled games! not gamefinder or box.
This is the first big misunderstanding: How many tournaments a coach can play in a season? Remember, tournaments are schedueled games with weekly deadlines mostly.
THE 10 MINORS LIMIT:
This is the second big misunderstanding. Coach A can play 72 tournaments but only a maximum of 18 best results will count. 8 majors and 10 minors. And if you miss to score points in a few majors this max of 18 drops. I.e. Coach A plays all majors but only get points in 2. Then this coach only scores 2 majors + a max 10 minors. So, 12 valid tournaments.
THE SMACK/BRAWL specialist
And the final misunderstanding. SMACKS and brawls are 3 games KO tournaments. So, its root score is a max of 45 points per brawl/smack won. Coach A wins 10 smacks/brawls per year (the maximum), he scores 450 root points, that's it! maximum.
If you check the root sequence, you will see that this can be nearly equal by coach B only playing 1 tournament with 6 wins.
Coach A needed to play 10 (3w) tournaments and win them all to get 450 root points when coach B only playing 1 tournament of 6 wins got 360 root points.
Therefore, 3 wins minors help to improve your score/position in the ranks but if you really want to make it to the top and shine you MUST do well in the LONG tournaments (MAJORS & 5,6 rnds MiNORS)
Sorry for the wall of writing.
o/ |
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