FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: May 27, 2006

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 16:34

The stats are there for everyone under the Fumbbl tab > Statistics.

For example looking at the last 30 months blackbox have been the most played league with between 0-1500 more games a month than ranked, the last 2 months ranked have had 1500 more games each month. So it seems there is some decline.

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Calcium

Joined: Apr 08, 2007

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 16:35

Azure wrote:

I tentatively like the new rule suggestions. However, I need to run the math first. Essentially, what is the chance to KO+ or CAS with the new rules compared to the old rules. I think some math to back up this situation would be better than anecdotal opinions from people.

The maths is included in plasmoids NTBB ruleset

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Anzelak

Joined: Nov 26, 2009

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 16:36

It's on the plasmoids site Azure.

Edit: Yeah, Calcium's link.

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Cloggy

Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 16:40

The proposed changes reflect pretty much how the rules should have been designed in the first place, so I'm certainly not opposed to any of them.

I'm not a fan of having different rulesets for the 2 main divisions on the site though. If you are convinced that introducing these 2 houserules is a good idea, I would prefer them to be implemented across all, or least the 2 competitive divisions.

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Roland

Joined: May 12, 2004

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 16:48

Chainchoker wrote:

Thank you for your post Christer - for both acknowledging the problem, as well as suggesting some solutions.

However, making any changes to BlackBox will always anger people. My solution?

Why not make a division where ALL of Plasmoid's suggestions are implemented (including roster changes). I anticipate that this new division will soon become the most popular, because you will be able to play sub-optimal teams have a better chance of winning.

This

paradocks

Joined: Jun 14, 2004

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 17:00

I think these changes can only be a good thing to try! People still have the other divisions for their cpombing fests, and more fun players will be encouraged to play in the Box

licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 17:01

I have nothing against trying these changes out in B, however as others have noted, houseruling the division makes for a bit of a deviation from what some people may expect.

I still don't think that the killstack is really the core problem though, rather that the problem is the ease with which certain teams can spam it across their roster. Essentially this is Choas and Pact. Necro only gets 2 and needs 2 doubles to do it. CD can have 7 (with the mino) but need 1 doubles to do it, and while blockers start with block and tackle, they also are very slow and unagile. Nurgle can get it on every player, but warriors tend to skill slowly and suffer from dwarf mobility, rotters need 2 doubles, presties have other roles to fill, and as you only have 4 it seems ok there. Skaven and Underworld also can access it, but it requires doubles (less on underworld, but underworld isn't much of a factor)

That leaves Pact and Chaos who can simply spam it across their entire rosters (less a few on Pact).

The problem then could be adjusted by simply removing S access from Beastmen and Marauders. Drop their cost by 10k if you like (though 5k increments would make all of this roster balancing so much cleaner).

I don't think roster changes are likely though, unless they hit the entire site, so apologies if this is too off topic for this thread. Also, while these changes will affect the amount of cpomb (and pomb too sadly) they will likely do nothing to deter the noob bashing min/max teams. So if that is a goal of these changes it's unlikely to succeed. The only thing that would really succeed there is a community imposed enforcement act against teams doing that. We already do this to teams that 'abuse' journymen or various other community no-nos, so I'm not sure why we couldn't also create some metric for these types of min/maxing teams.

Kelkka

Joined: Aug 14, 2009

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 17:07

Claw nerf sounds good to me. Plenty of positives, and very little drawbacks here.
I'm a bit concerned about PO on injury only option.

There are a number of mid/low-tier non-claw races (humans, lizards, orcs, khemri, ogre) who don't necessarily need a nerf. Making these guys bash less could lead to less diversity, and combined with claw nerf things could turn a bit too elfy.

But on the other hand these same races become more durable if option is enabled. And matches should be more reasonable. Also it would be good way to address certain sweetspotter races (like zons and undead). So i'm still a bit undecided, slightly positive, about the PO option.

Sp00keh

Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 17:13

i dont like the idea of moving away from official rules

would prefer to see solution involving the match maker, if possible

The_Murker

Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 17:14

Going to disagree with any point that says this won't really affct the main noob bashing builds.

The main noob bashing builds revolve around a clawpomb star. Here are two rule changes that lower the effectiveness of any clawpomb star. The noob-basher IS the STAR, so this change affects that team MORE than any other team.

Yes, many good options and suggestions have been presented over the years, but this easy, specific idea, up for debate from the only person that really matters, starts to move everything in the right direction, I believe.

Low TV amazons POMB. Alot. Their PO will be a little less effective as well.

So all pombers are weakened a bit. As it should be. Even the star elven POMBER is weaker.

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Azure

Joined: Jan 30, 2007

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 17:16

Calcium wrote:

The maths is included in plasmoids NTBB ruleset

Okay, read through this - hard to disagree with any of the suggestions. I certainly would not mind having some or all of the suggestions introduced into Blackbox.

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 17:18

Roland wrote:

Chainchoker wrote:

Thank you for your post Christer - for both acknowledging the problem, as well as suggesting some solutions.

However, making any changes to BlackBox will always anger people. My solution?

Why not make a division where ALL of Plasmoid's suggestions are implemented (including roster changes). I anticipate that this new division will soon become the most popular, because you will be able to play sub-optimal teams have a better chance of winning.

This

That will be the [L]eague division. Come and try it. It's great. Very Happy

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licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 17:22

The_Murker wrote:

Going to disagree with any point that says this won't really affct the main noob bashing builds.

The main noob bashing builds revolve around a clawpomb star. Here are two rule changes that lower the effectiveness of any clawpomb star. The noob-basher IS the STAR, so this change affects that team MORE than any other team.

Yes, many good options and suggestions have been presented over the years, but this easy, specific idea, up for debate from the only person that really matters, starts to move everything in the right direction, I believe.

Low TV amazons POMB. Alot. Their PO will be a little less effective as well.

So all pombers are weakened a bit. As it should be. Even the star elven POMBER is weaker.

Making them slightly weaker is not the same as getting rid of them entirely. It's also not that hard to shift to a different min/max build which doesn't rely on pomb so much.

Generally though the nerf to pomb isn't that impactful as armor gets rr'd less than injury anyway.

I don't disagree that we shouldn't try something, and this is a fair start. I'm not not convinced that it addresses the low tv min/max issue efficiently.

Koadah: L does not have an automatic scheduler.

Roland

Joined: May 12, 2004

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 17:28

koadah wrote:

Roland wrote:

Chainchoker wrote:

Thank you for your post Christer - for both acknowledging the problem, as well as suggesting some solutions.

However, making any changes to BlackBox will always anger people. My solution?

Why not make a division where ALL of Plasmoid's suggestions are implemented (including roster changes). I anticipate that this new division will soon become the most popular, because you will be able to play sub-optimal teams have a better chance of winning.

This

That will be the [L]eague division. Come and try it. It's great. Very Happy

I'm there already and no NTBB rosters yet...

Anzelak

Joined: Nov 26, 2009

Posted: Dec 15, 2013 - 17:29

Quote:

Generally though the nerf to pomb isn't that impactful as armor gets rr'd less than injury anyway.

Again, have a look at the math. It looks good to me. It's about reducing the efficiency.

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