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Poll
Is Warhammer still worth playing for fun?
Yes! - and I will tell you why...
24%
 24%  [ 8 ]
No! - and I will tell you why...
39%
 39%  [ 13 ]
Don't know / can't comment.
36%
 36%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 33


Wotfudboy



Joined: Feb 17, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 13:14 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm probably similar to many people here (no jokes please DukeTyrion!) in that I first started an appreciation for Games Workshop back when I was at school in the 80's. This is when I marvelled at the painting of miniatures in the Golden Demon awards, and thought that one day, with time and money I might emulate those figures, or indeed collect an army that would really look the part. This never happened. I never had enough money, and couldn't paint anywhere near well enough to even come close to the poorest miniature in a Games Workshop store display.

Anyway, finally with my body packing up with age and therefore reducing sporting commitments, and having slightly more disposable income than I did when I was 11, I got out my pathetic "army" of half-painted Dark Angels and Eldar miniatures and will set about painting those. I also ordered an Ultimate Paint set as most of the paints from 1980/90 are pretty dried up (not bad for paints 30 years old!).

So, my question is on it's way. Be patient reader. I've played a few games of Warhammer 40k back at University back in the mid-90's, mainly vs Space Wolves. I've never played any competitions or played at Games Workshop stores, and frankly don't have any mates that play this. I intend to change this... and was thinking about trying out Warhammer table top as the High Elf army looks quite clean and tidy to paint and have some interesting command models... plus, I could build an army with a few units consisting of a smaller number of models (as I gather they are expensive in points cost compared to orcs or skaven etc).

I was looking to the community to find out answers to the following questions, and would appreciate your time in passing on your accumulated experiences/knowledge.

1) Is Warhammer fun to play? Is it dieing out when compared to Warhammer 40K. I know I've read about Dark Angel codexes being shocking of late in W40K, and wondered if the same tinkering was happening in Warhammer.

2) Where do you guys recommend sourcing your miniatures? I've tried ebay but the bidding on unpainted miniatures closely finishes to how much it would cost to buy a new item. I bought my paint set from http://www.triplehelixwargames.co.uk/ which was 25% off advertised GW prices which I thought was a bit of a steal. I have googled and can see http://totalwargamer.co.uk/ with 30% off, but have seen mixed reviews about when you actually get sent your miniatures... and neither site lets you order all of the High Elves that are shown on the GW site.

3) General recommendations from anyone about anything around this would be appreciated. I live around the Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire (UK) area, so if any other thirty or forty something Warhammer fan fancies introducing me to the game I would appreciate you getting in touch.

P.S. I have no beef about Games Workshop at all (at the moment), so don't really want this post being hijacked for a GW bash! Just considered thoughts please Smile

Thanks to you all in advance and have a happy & healthy 2014!
Russo



Joined: Apr 11, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 13:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I am in a similar vein as you Wotfud, my issue is time at the moment so will be a while before I can realise it all.

I actually have a lot of random starts on various armies from when I was younger, but my feelings are that irrespective of the GW "issue" you are playing for fun and not in a GW shop. Therefore some of the draconian attitudes of GW are not relevent to your decsion.

The great thing about Warhammer is you can design you own campaigns and scenarios on paper and then play them out. You can create things that are not in the GW Histories or bring in "allies" from other model manufacturers and all in the comfort of a house or local function room depending on how organised your local area is.

From my point of view Warhammer is only negative if you chose to let the commercial constraints apply to you. My view is cast them off and get your creative juices flowing....no puns please DukeTyrion Smile!

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 13:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Is it fun yes, is it worth the money noooooo. not by a long shot. The latest edition of the rules is my least favourite for a long time as well. It just relies on taking huge block units so who ever is willing to buy the most standard troops and paint them up generally has the best army now. Which is lame imo. I prefered it when heros and monsters were the way to go with support from troops for fodder.

Sadly these days 40k is the superior rule set of their core games.

As a cheap alternative though, you can easily play warhammer with squares of paper and a note pad though.

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Nielsh



Joined: Sep 11, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 13:49 Reply with quote Back to top

I think you can buy used armies pretty cheap. Or you can buy the models from Manticgames (UK based company). They dont have all the same units as warhammer, but you can buy the basics pretty cheap - their elf models are not good, but undead, orcs, ogres and humans are cool.

I just started again and it is fun, but I only play with some friends over a beer, but it is a nice other way to meet.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 13:57 Reply with quote Back to top

I guess another point is, how far you take it, if you keep the games small, say 1000k then you could probably have a lot of fun with the rules, but when everyone gets to know the rules really well and the meta gaming starts, this is where wfb starts to fall over imo.

Oh and play with lots of scenery it makes things loads better imo

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Overhamsteren



Joined: May 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 14:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Warhammer by the rules with armies built to the most competitive level is not something for me right now. There are just some things that are way too good, although I don't believe it's standard troops.

As I see it there's a lot of magic that can win the game. Empire/chaos/ogre monstrous cavalry is also insanely dominating, a unit of 4 kills 10-20 infantry per turn and are very hard to wound and they are fast too of course. Same with some monstrous infantry like units of 10-12 trolls and the like. Cannons have become way too reliable and makes it almost pointless to take anything but the most underpriced monsters, especially considering that deamons, ogres and chaos also got big warmachines now. And lots of other stuff.

Seeing as you have to meet new people I guess playing house rules or under restrictions can be tough arrange?

But of course some people enjoy warhammer as it is right now, maybe you will too. High elfs are very competitive, and can actually use some monsters and infantry in a competitive army. They also have good magic and shooting too of course.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 14:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Overhamsteren wrote:
There are just some things that are way too good, although I don't believe it's standard troops.


I dunno like. wait till you face skaven slave armies my god they are soooo dull and pretty invicible. But yes there are other things are just too good that it makes other choices pointless now.

I think what everyone is getting at though, is if you find a good group to play with you can have a lot of fun with the rules. If you find a group that meta games it is no fun.

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Deadshane



Joined: Feb 06, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 14:13 Reply with quote Back to top

I've been a light Fantasy and a heavy 40k national tournament player since '96. I've been into the game since '89.

I just ebayed the rest of my Fantasy stuff and have packed my 40k stuff up for the most part...I've played 6 games of the new edition.

GW has priced me out of the hobby/lost me as a customer, for actually several reasons.

1. Obviously, the models are overpriced. Yes they are some of the best gaming miniatures around, but there are others that are equally amazing for A LOT less. Seen FFG's line of X-Wing Mini's? More substantial purchase that...a fig with rules/painted well for play/and really good detail given the scale. $15. $10 dollars on easily found internet suppliers at discount. Compare that to a Space Marine Captain. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440271a&prodId=prod2160140a 30 bucks...one fig...no rules/stuff. Think about it...THIRTY DOLLARS...for a single plastic mini. It's amazingly stupid.

2. Finecast. Horrible. Worthless. Enraging. It's so bad I've heard reports that GW is even phasing it out. I dunno however since I havent investigated further...since I don't care anymore about their games.

Which brings me to...

3. Their games. Now, I've got a friend who was equally fanatic as I who gave up years ago with the last edition of Fantasy. His complaints basically echoed mine in reverse. He was more a fantasy player than 40k. Myself more a 40k player, and I now have quit for the same reasons he did...only they've done to 40k what he complained about in Fantasy those years ago.
The system is just bad compared to other games out there. Requiring constant FAQ and the game and releases are also designed not to let the player have fun but to SELL MORE OVERPRICED MODELS.
They are both some of the most tedious wargames you can play with the setup, terrain rules, wound allocation, order of charging, 100's of special rules, the game is just a mess now. For the money you play to be involved in this "game" you should be able to have fun, get to playing, the game just inst that simple anymore.

It's a messy pile of unneeded/wanted rules that make for a ridiculously tedious exercise for the average player. In competetive games rules disagreements abound, largely due to the uncleanliness of this $100 Tome and it's massive amounts of $50 army books that you must draw from.

Did I mention that the game was expensive now? Lets play Eldar shall we?
74.25 for the rulebook
49.50 Codex Eldar
OH WAIT...Iyanden...my favorite craftworld!
49.50 Iyanden Supplement!

That's 175 dollars to get started and you havent yet bought a single overpriced Model in order to play a typical 1850 to 2000pt game...the bad messy tedious game.

Price is basically the big deterrent here, because you can spend the same amount of money and get LOTS of other quality games...games that are fun and quick to play. Also, since games actually are not really expensive, you've got variety.

Since I've dropped GW flagship games, my disposable income goes instead to Boardgaming (Fortune and Glory, Horus Heresy, Relic, Arkham Horror, Last night on Earth) Cardgaming (Netrunner, pathfinder) and different miniature gaming (X-Wing, ACTA Star Fleet, Bloodbowl)

My game room is full of games, Over 50 X-Wing figures, Bloodbowl Teams...many(from Willy mainly since his site is awesome), some Starline 2500 Star Fleet Figs (also VERY reasonably priced in comparison to GW with AWESOME quality and detail) and stacks and stacks of boardgames.

Compare that to the army that would already be outdated thanks to recent releases that I would have been working on the past year. Codex creep is the business model nowadays for gw. Anyone who tells you different nowadays is clueless or an employee.

I've quit GW and my gaming hobby is more healthy for it.

If you gotta get your GW "universe" fix there are plenty of novels, and side games (Horus Heresy, Relic, and I beleive a Warhammer card game) out there so that you can get your Warhammer ON. Either that or there are still older computer games to search for and watch out for that are fabulous. I still play my 40k real time strategy on occasion.

Basically, don't do it. It isnt worth it. Horrible games by a company that has totally lost it's way. GW isnt that company we fell in love with back in the 80's and early 90's. The original designers are all gone, replaced by drones that don't really care about what the people want and are instead influenced by corperate shrews that insist on making the game to where the biggest and most expensive models are also the most powerful ones, and you lose the game w/o them.

It's a horrible experience, rich with history and fluff, but when you get right down to it, it's a bad game, with good models that arent THAT much better than you can get for other systems....but you pay TOP dollar for every little thing. Right down to the overpriced GW paint pots.

Sorry this was so long, I hope I answered your question. I'll return and comment more if you have specific questions.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 14:35 Reply with quote Back to top

I've been playing WHFB since 1995 and in my and a friend's of mine opinion WHFB is not worth its money for the reasons stated by previous posters.
If you want to have some fun with WHFB miniatures without spending too much try Mordheim, or Necromunda if you want a game set in WH40K, if you can find some people to play with.
keggiemckill



Joined: Oct 07, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 14:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Everyone I know who was into 40k, has now quit and come to Blood Bowl. The only stragglers are the guys obsessed about painting minis.

There is a lesser version of it that my 8 year old plays with Lego figures, which is called Brick Wars. He goes to a Lego club twice a week and loves it. Mind you the games are only 30 min long and they only use 5 guys. The club has adapted the rules to accomodate the kids. It lets them be creative, by building different enviroments and then use them. They said they found the rule set online, and is simular to the 40k rules.

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Wotfudboy



Joined: Feb 17, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 14:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for your posts so far guys. Makes interesting reading, if a little disillusioning.

I would be interested to see some more links to either a) sites with nicer/recommended models or indeed b) sites about similar games to Warhammer that you would totally recommend.

For this discussion, I am not soooo worried about prices of individual models as this will turn in to a part painting / part army building project... but I would prefer to build an army which people are generally likely to have heard of and play. Games Workshop games are good in that at least it is a brand everyone seems to know and may have at least dabbled at one time or another.

Please keep the thoughts coming!

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 14:51 Reply with quote Back to top

if you already have a high elf army started, I would continue with that, if you have the time, building a wfb army can be great fun.

However mordheim would be a project that would be a lot more fun imo and I bet you could get your BB pals interested too. Building scenery for it is great fun. Building warbands is lots of fun too. I have made an awesome inn for mordeim, I will try and find a link for it now Smile

edit - here is my inn -

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Last edited by Garion on Dec 20, 2013 - 15:03; edited 1 time in total
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 15:02 Reply with quote Back to top

You're in the wrong place to get an objective opinion, that's what I think. BB, Man-O-War, etc. were supposed to be "gateway" games for WH, to draw roleplayers and map-and-counter gamers in with a half-measure. It didn't work, and the animosity between GW and the Specialist community, which bought the intro games and then considered and to a great extent rejected WHFB/40k (or even left the flagship games for the "gateway" games), is ultimately the reason that FUMBBL exists.

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Wotfudboy



Joined: Feb 17, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 15:07 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't have any high elves (yet) or indeed any Warhammer figures at all... the old high elf "hero on a griffon" and "lord on dragon" miniatures sparked an interest in something different to W40K.

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Overhamsteren



Joined: May 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2013 - 15:13 Reply with quote Back to top

The whole price discussion is totally subjective, I find most of GWs miniatures great and if I want some I can spare the money right now and do not feel molested by the evil businessmen when doing so.

Most of the alternatives to Fantasy Battles are great skirmish games with nice miniatures, like Warmachine/Hordes, Malifaux and all the small kickstarter funded ones. I guess you can argue that they are less expensive than Warhammer due to needing less miniatures, but Warmachine/Hordes definitely aint cheap imo. Smile

For big fantasy armies you can buy Gamezone miniatures and Avatars of War regiments but they are about as expensive as GW. Mantic makes a lot of regiments but most of them have sucky sculpts and the quality of casting I got in my Dreadball miniatures was subpar. Also a lot of it isn't really that cheap I feel. Mantic also made a ruleset for big fantasy army combat but I have no idea how it plays.

In the end if you wanna play a big classic fantasy wargame with big regiments and heroes and magic and monsters I think it's hard to find a better package than GW's. And as said it's also important that so many play it when you need someone to play with.

Someone also mentioned boardgames, there are tons of great boardgames coming out these years. For warhammer flavour Chaos in the Old World is very fun and interesting.

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