fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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Jul 15, 2014 - 23:36 |
 
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The only thing that really bothers me about Juggs is that you can cancel a defender's Wrestle and yet still use Block to bring them down. IMO if you choose to use Juggs the push on Both Down ought to be mandatory.
Juggs is yet another example of a skill that is highly positionally useful and much more interesting in the context of a nerfed killstack.
It shouldn't ever cancel Fend, though. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 15, 2014 - 23:41 |
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Yes fidius gets it. |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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Jul 16, 2014 - 00:47 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | EDIT: As for fend, it could probably do with a boost. Personally I'd like to see something like taunt&fend -> the coach of the blocked player decides whether or not to follow up.
But hard to explain from a fluff point of view. |
Buff grab? Grab + fend... that might be too OP though.
The original post about nerfing juggernaut? Pixel hugging at its finest. Killstack is (or isn't IMHO) overpowered so nerf a skill that is a cool finesse skill and a very specific one at that (blitz only)... yeah... great idea... NOT. |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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Jul 16, 2014 - 00:51 |
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| Garion wrote: | | Yes fidius gets it. |
Yeah, gets that Blood Bowl should be a game of elf ball. That's what half of these stupid threads seem to have an underlying whiff of.
It _should_ cancel fend. It _should_ cancel stand firm. It probably still should cancel wrestle as well to give wrestle a mild negative - otherwise peeps (read: agility teams) would spam wrestle on their linemen, like they currently do anyway, and have no negative side effect to it. Just pure joy. |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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Jul 16, 2014 - 01:33 |
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The ideal scenario imo is a re-written ruleset that maintains the level of carnage, but spreads it out more by making a variety of damage skills available to everyone, and the killstack less effective and easy to spam. If Big Guys were more dangerous, AV7 teams slightly less vulnerable, fouling/cheating more effective/interesting, twink teams (Zons, Dwarfs) less twinky, and Mutation teams less derpy, most players would be happy I think. |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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Jul 16, 2014 - 02:16 |
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| fidius wrote: | | The ideal scenario imo is a re-written ruleset that maintains the level of carnage, but spreads it out more by making a variety of damage skills available to everyone, and the killstack less effective and easy to spam. If Big Guys were more dangerous, AV7 teams slightly less vulnerable, fouling/cheating more effective/interesting, twink teams (Zons, Dwarfs) less twinky, and Mutation teams less derpy, most players would be happy I think. |
I tell you what, let's nerf agility and speed too because man bashing teams really suck at that. So if you nerf all the teams, then they'll all be the same, and it'll be the most boring game on the planet. Like... let's only play humans, ever. Brilliant plan. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 16, 2014 - 08:10 |
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Oh shush chainsaw you are seeing one thing and rambling on about something completely different. Fidius is correct imo. The rule set would be vastly better if attrition was more evenly distributed, obviously with bash teams causing a little more than finesse ones.
The bottom line here is there should never ever in any game be counters to counters. It's just plain bad game design. Just have juggernaut do something different. No one is talking about making it worse. Just make it different. Fend is already a pretty irrelevant skill choice juggernaut cancelling it just makes it even more so. And the juggs cancells wrestle allowing the user to use block is just a very clunky game mechanic . The skill just needs to be rewritten and changed slightly. |
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bigGuy
Joined: Sep 21, 2009
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Jul 16, 2014 - 08:59 |
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Jugg canceling wrestle makes block+jugg combo viable. Also, it makes sense fluff wise. Unstoppable blitz, defender has no time to wrestle attacker to the ground. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 16, 2014 - 09:07 |
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Yes I understand it thanks. I just don't like it. A player with wrodge should never be naked when being blitzed by blk, tkl, jugs. Imo. Why get that advantage over someone who took block instead of wrestle? I just find the whole mechanics of it very very clunky. The fact many experienced coaches didn't even know it had this effect in a recent thread on the subject also tells you it is far from intuative.
I'm happy with it cancelling stand firm mind, that makes sense, and you would still have 1 counters for ss, grab. And this to counter stand firm.
I think bgangradas' change would make it more interesting personally and remove all the clutter. His way you have a skill that makes big guys a bit more reliable and makes the skill better for crowd surfing. Which imo also needs a buff like +1to inj for surfs or something, removal of apo and regen too like in previous editions. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jul 16, 2014 - 09:23 |
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I think it is clear from the sample of games and rosters that block skill is stronger than wrestle. So from purely a mechanical point of view there is no need to give an extra counter against wrestle.
With that said I understand the argument about fluff, but fluff is not delivered when a big part of the player base does not get the mechanic (as Garion pointed at), thus has no chance to pick up the full fluff. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Jul 16, 2014 - 09:35 |
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| Garion wrote: | | removal of apo and regen too like in previous editions. |
That was just a bug, like fouls using a point of ma.
I would also like surfing to be more brutal, but is it fair? Bad caches get surfed hella more than good coaches, so while you may feel that you deserve an injury when you manage to surf say one of Endzone's players, mostly you will be surfing scrub coaches players who need all the help they can get. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jul 16, 2014 - 09:41 |
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If you are surfing with elves or similar, and you have man advantage with lets say elves, then you are winning that drive. In that situation I am perfectly happy even if there is no chance for injury, just got rid of a player temporarily.
From the fluff point of view I think the crowd is not as proficient in Mighty blow as a big guy, and would be foolish to pile on, as who is down would be trampled over. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jul 16, 2014 - 16:28 |
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If you really wanted to modify crowdpush, then you MAY do it with fame modifier on the injury roll. But that case you need to soften the blow in case the crowd is friendly. I would personally not do that, but that is a way if you really wanted. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 16, 2014 - 16:42 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Garion wrote: | | removal of apo and regen too . |
I would also like surfing to be more brutal, but is it fair? Bad caches get surfed hella more than good coaches, so while you may feel that you deserve an injury when you manage to surf say one of Endzone's players, mostly you will be surfing scrub coaches players who need all the help they can get. |
Of course it's fair. If a noob coach reads that Surfs give +1 to injury and no apo can be used in the rules they will learn quicker imo. I also think it's a far better equalizer than claw as everyone can do it. Bad coaches lose regardless I dont really think your point makes sense tbh.
And from a fluff perspective it makes perfect sense . Blood bowl crowds are huge and hugely violent, the fluff describes them in a fair bit of depth. Also the sheer number of them laying into the victim would more than make up for them not being as strong as a bb player.
The point of it though is this - cpomb needs to be nerfed no doubt. But we do need the attrition it brings, we all want it more evenly distributed obviously with bash still having a little advantage. This along with fouling is your solution.
You could make it more interesting where fame modifies The injury roll. Or the team with the most cheerleaders gets +1 or something like that if you wanted. (The cheerleaders directing the crowd in how to main the opposing player )
Surfing atm is far too tame. Getting pushed into the crowd should not result in your player making it back to the dug out in one piece mote often than not. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jul 16, 2014 - 16:52 |
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| Garion wrote: | | The point of it though is this - cpomb needs to be nerfed no doubt. But we do need the attrition it brings, we all want it more evenly distributed obviously with bash still having a little advantage. This along with fouling is your solution. |
Generally I agree. I would say though that the attrition at low TV is on the low side, and attrition at high TV could be on the high side. Distributing attrition among different sources is a good idea even if the game stays on the high side of the attrition scale. |
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