Zlefin
Joined: Apr 14, 2005
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 Posted:
Jul 01, 2014 - 07:38 |
 
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I was wondering if it's possible to have a ruleset that works really well both for league play, and for continuous open play like box.
Have there been any proofs that they're incompatible? |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jul 01, 2014 - 07:56 |
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I would not call it proof, but I can tell you my view, and the conclusion of those assumptions.
Assumptions:
- League requires good play and variety on low TV.
- Continuous play requires an equilibrium, which is fun to play, and road is fun to get to that said equilibrium.
- In blaxbox type, all what matters is the bang for the buck, the performance for the TV cost
- People don't like when the team is decimated beyond repair during one match
Conclusion:
- If you want a ruleset which is good for both, then all teams, all players should be about equal bang for the buck, so that both short term, both long term should be about equal. That rules out the combination of lets say norse and chaos, as norse starts strong, ends weak, while chaos starts weak, and ends strong.
- Bargain linos and overpriced positionals are a no go. (I am looking at amazon lino and slann blitzer as prime examples.)
- Access to multiple skill types could be an issue, as those players develop better by definition, but according to the low TV games, you cant charge extra for that.
- Limit the synergy between the skills, as they are by definition better than the cost of their parts.
- Nerf killstack. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Jul 01, 2014 - 08:08 |
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I believe if is possible. I don't think the current rules make if a reality. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jul 01, 2014 - 08:12 |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 01, 2014 - 08:17 |
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Yes its possible. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jul 01, 2014 - 08:21 |
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What's the problem with having the same ruleset for League and Open? They're both perpetual.
The problem is one ruleset for Resurrection and long term perpetual play. For me there are major problems with TV here; it's up to you whether you can see this or not. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jul 02, 2014 - 13:01 |
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I try to gather the requirements for those aspects below, and then find common ground.
Assumptions
- when something is utterly bad, then nobody uses it, so pricing more agressively increases variety
- when something is broken, then everybody uses it, so pricing less agressively increases variety
- some rosters and players are weaker on purpose
- attrition is high on high TV, and is not accessible to everyone
stunties suck really hard
Guidelines
- make it balanced for resurrection, league and blackbox
- keep the balance between the bashing and agility rosters
- take away some bash from the hard bashing teams, and allocate attrition between the rosters
- taking away some power from the really strong agility players with roster modification, like toning down 1 turners outside of TTM
- when changing a rule, then i feel it is an absolute must, and try to remove complexity, not add it
If you miss something, feel free to add. If you doubt something, shout. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Jul 02, 2014 - 13:14 |
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How do you define "works really well"?
It's pretty subjective, and you can't please all of the people all of the time. |
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awambawamb
Joined: Feb 17, 2008
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Jul 02, 2014 - 14:29 |
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randomly allocated skill.
would be fun to see the minmaxers screaming in agony |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jul 02, 2014 - 15:54 |
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King_Ghidra
Joined: Sep 14, 2009
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Jul 02, 2014 - 16:41 |
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Right now the meta-game in these formats favours the av9's and bashers in terms of the ability to safely navigate the growth period of the team and to remain competitive at high tv over long periods of time. This does of course in time lead to more lopsided tv games, which generally favours them too.
Something that could be easily reworked to reduce this meta-domination is the rules regarding permanent injuries and temporary players (which are purely part of the league rules and would not change the fundamental in-match rules).
Permanent Injuries and Loner Journeymen are both issues that far more significantly affect the more easily hurt teams. Everyone knows the feeling of frustration when you start a new team or new league and your team loses a key positional to death or crippling injury in game one. Equally, when you take a pounding and cash is low, you now have to play a game with a bunch of unskilled and unreliable players. These issues disproportionately hurt the stunties and low-av teams, and are imho the most important factors in terms of skewing the balance of perpetual and open leagues.
Some suggestions:
Journeymen lose the loner skill - fluff reasons for why journeymen are less effective than normal players are all well and good, but the impact of this in the meta is that teams that get beaten up are punished further.
All niggling injuries and stat losses are removed. MNG's and deaths remain. This will retain the role and significance (particularly in-match) of casualties while diminishing the less fun and imbalancing meta-game aspects.
Would this in time cause a general inflation of tv in these formats? Certainly. Would this be a bad thing? Certainly not, it would just even the field in terms of who is playing at high tv and hopefully reduce the problems outlined in the first paragraph. |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Jul 02, 2014 - 16:53 |
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That we have journeymen at all is an improvement for beaten up teams compared to previous rulesets. Remove loner and more teams will try to get away with using journeymen to save up cash.
Removing most injuries would mean legends are in just about every experienced team. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jul 02, 2014 - 17:35 |
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While you identify an issue I resonate with King Ghidra - I can't say I relish the idea of fouling clawpombers to no meta game benefit for the rest of the community.
Being stuck in a spiral of AV7 death is difficult and not fun, but the cause isn't located at the back end of the rolls, it's at the armor/injury roll. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jul 02, 2014 - 17:46 |
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We're not going to do anything. We're not even going to trial the CPOMB nerfs that Christer was considering.
We'll never have good ruleset for Box unless we're actually going to test rules in the Box. Even a vault division won't help that much. Coaches in there won't be playing the way that Box coaches play.
Cyanide boys are chatting about a low/no attrition division. Now that would be a funny thing. It would probably be the popular division of the lot.  |
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King_Ghidra
Joined: Sep 14, 2009
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Jul 02, 2014 - 17:47 |
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| garyt1 wrote: | That we have journeymen at all is an improvement for beaten up teams compared to previous rulesets. Remove loner and more teams will try to get away with using journeymen to save up cash.
Removing most injuries would mean legends are in just about every experienced team. |
Do you think those are significant problems? Moreso than the ones we have now?
Would the game be more or less fun and fair with such a metagame?
(btw I think the journeymen abuse/cash hoarding issue is the single most irrelevant that has been seriously discussed on the site. It is, imho, of no consequence at all.)
| mrt1212 wrote: | | Being stuck in a spiral of AV7 death is difficult and not fun, but the cause isn't located at the back end of the rolls, it's at the armor/injury roll. |
The thing is, there's no great evidence to suggest that the killstack/in-match injury-causing is itself OP versus, for example, ag4 dodginess. Win rates for the ag4 teams are still considerably higher across the board at almost all tv's.
But the damage in terms of the metagame and player enjoyment is obvious. Half of blackbox's problems stem purely from how the division has evolved with the current system.
So I would rather keep the fixes to the metagame and let the in-match play sort it self out. I think once the killers start to find themselves facing stronger and more rounded opposition more often, their apparent advantage will appear less so.
That said, I did strongly consider the idea that a change to the in-match injury process could be interesting. e.g. cas'ed players being allowed to return to play a la ko's. permanent player removal is clearly a huge in-match thing and it may well be that making injury recovery more less permanent could be another big balancer - but i think that's more for a general rules discussion rather than one about the perpetual and open league metagame which was OP's question |
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