bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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 Posted:
Jul 02, 2014 - 18:24 |
 
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Beware: This is a theoretical exercise to see what steps are needed to unify and balance the tabletop (resurrection) and online(blackbox) bb worlds. I don't necessarily what I would do with the ruleset. It is a fundamental question whether the same ruleset should apply to those worlds. Anyway, feel free to debate, that is the purpose of posting.
This is a thread trying to fix the issues with the current ruleset. I believe this is the best ever ruleset, but I also see it is not flawless. I tried to cover most issues with minimal changes to the rules. (So there are ideas I would support, but did not include here.)
I grouped the changes into 4 steps. Step1,2,3 are necessary in my opinion, while step4 is not, but linked to the concept. Please note that this is a balancing exercise, but not intended to equalise the power of rosters, so this is NOT a narrowing the tiers project. (In spite of some of the solutions may lead to that direction, but the idea behind those decisions are not based on narrow tier concept.)
Step 1: Pricing decisions with blackbox and resurrection in mind.
- amazon linewoman 50->60 (Necessary for both tabletop and blackbox.)
- amazon blitzer 90->80 - partial compensation for more expensive lino
- marauder 50->60 and gains A access
- norse lineman 50->60 (Necessary for both tabletop and blackbox.)
- norse blitzer 90->80 - partial compensation for more expensive lino
- norse runner 90->80 - partial compensation for more expensive lino
- ulfwerener 110->100 - partial compensation for more expensive lino
- wardancer 120->130 (This is with tabletop in mind)
Rationale: Underpriced players contribute to the minmax phenomena in blackbox, while strip balled wardancer is a hot issue in tabletop resurrection. This step intends to balance those strategies.
Step 2: Rules, to adress killstack, attrition.
- Piling on: Works only on armor, and moves to agility skill. (Former limits attrition from this source. Latter makes most killstack players 10k more expensive.)
- Sneaky git: When foul, then only ban on even doubles (2,2;4,4;6,6) on armor/injury roll. (To increase the attrition coming from fouling.)
- Juggernaut: When blocks or blitzes, then it may convert any non skull result into a push. (Does not counter fend, wrestle, stand firm, so there is protection against killstack.)
- No limit of roster size: to help alternative attrition strategies, like secret weapon, or employing big bench as a counter to attrition.
- Winner does not reroll money gain. Both teams get same money, but 10k more than before. (Loser usually has a hard enough time to recover.)
- Concession: Winner does not gain losers money.
- Mutations are on normal rolls on all mutating rosters. (This provides better attrition against high armor on average.)
- Chaos dwarf blocker loses access to S, and gains M access on normal.
Rationale: Distributing the attrition among mutation, agility, strength and foul strategies. Killstack was clearly the strongest, so weakened it through a little nerf, plus providing a legitimate counter to piling on with the changeover of juggernaut, while also giving something to the other strategies.
Step 3: Step2 made agility stronger, roster adjustments to compensate, thus maintain balance
- minotaur 150->140
- bull centaur 130->120
- dark elf blitzer 2 of a kind, not 4 - which also balances the elven races
- ogre 140->130
- tomb guardian loses decay
- flesh golem 110->100
- yhetee 140->130
- ratogre 150->140
- gutter runner loses 1 point of speed (gains mutation access as step2) - lessens one turners success rate
- wood elf catcher loses sprint - lessens one turners success rate
Rationale: Big guys got discount, while 1 turn scoring become little more difficult.
Step4: fine tuning
- dark elf assasin 90->80
- halfling 30->20 - huge boost in combination with unlimited roster size
- high elf thrower 90->80 - 10k markup is enough for pass skill over linelf
- snotling 20->10 - huge boost in combination with unlimited roster size
- slann blitzer 110->100
- wood elf thrower 90->80 - 10k markup is enough for pass skill over linelf
Rationale: These steps are optional, but promotes variety in my opinion. You can remove any item, or add narrowing the tier concepts along if you wish doing so. |
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Last edited by bghandras on %b %04, %2014 - %16:%Jul; edited 3 times in total |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Jul 02, 2014 - 18:42 |
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No better than CRP. Just different problems. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jul 02, 2014 - 18:57 |
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Thanks for the detailed feedback. What is the issue for you which was not addressed above, and which is also the underlying problem in CRP in you opinion? |
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cameronhawkins
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
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Jul 02, 2014 - 19:04 |
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I don't want to inhibit this kind of discussion, because I think that discussions like this are obviously a prerequisite to improving anything.
However, I need to point out:
a) Marauder already has P-access.
b) By 'simple' do you mean 'normal roll' ?
Also––
c) The rationale for changing the Thrower prices is weak. They are paying not only for the skill, but also for the P-access. 10k is such a small difference that it would make sense to take one even without the P-access.
d) Removing S-access from Chaos Dwarf Blockers, while I admire the motivation, is a drastic change to the team. Like, huge. I makes it a totally different roster. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jul 02, 2014 - 19:09 |
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It was a typo, meant A access. So access to all skills.
As I said step4 are optional. Not part of the big thing.
Chaos dwarf: No S, but easy M access means that they can have claw at will, but not killstack. Plus the Bull is cheaper, and can also mutate. I agree it is different. This is one of the changes how to increase attrition at low TV, but limit at high TV to a reasonable level. |
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Last edited by bghandras on %b %02, %2014 - %19:%Jul; edited 2 times in total |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Jul 02, 2014 - 19:13 |
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We're back in the realm of presenting opinion as fact, aren't we (to reference an ongoing thread elsewhere)? For example: 'Strip Balled Wardancers are a hot issue in Tabletop resurrection'. I think I play more resurrection BB in more countries than the majority of people. That is not a true statement, in my experience.
Look, I don't mean to pick on one thing out of a long post, that's poor form. But it's just an example of a wider point. Any one person's tweaks are going to be unpalatable to someone else, and it's all a matter of opinion. On the plus side, we're in the house rules section, where this stuff should be knocked about. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Jul 02, 2014 - 19:16 |
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Chaos dwarf blocker loses access to S, and gains M access on normal.
errrrrrrrr u take away guard and mightyblow, they become best as rookies and not worth skilling. completely breaks the team |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jul 02, 2014 - 19:18 |
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@Purplegoo
Sure, I can be wrong. On the other hand I don't think I stated fact. I put the reasoning. If the reasoning as explanation to help you, and others to judge the matter. So if you disagree with that sentence, you can point at it like you did. No issu about that. The whole starting point of the discussion was "what should be done in order to make the ruleset work at different types of blood bowl". This is one logical conclusion using all the experience I got. Could those experience be flawed? Surely. The whole point of posting is not that I want to be clever, but to gather different view, and constructive criticism. So you are welcome to present your case about tabletop.
@Sp00keh
Would you rather have them also S access, and also costing them at 80k? |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Jul 02, 2014 - 19:20 |
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marauder 50->60 and gains A access
so they're 60k and GASM with P on double? so you can blodge them all up?
nope
they're basic evil humans, why do they get A access?
they should stay as is, but have either M or S restricted to a double |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Jul 02, 2014 - 19:22 |
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i dont think you need to change chaos dwarf blockers. the team isn't overly powerful or weak. they really won't work without guard
making bulls 10k cheaper is good idea if you're nerfing cpomb
i think flesh golems need made 10k cheaper actually, (in the current rules). so if u nerf bash, make FG cheaper |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jul 02, 2014 - 19:23 |
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I listed flash golems who become cheaper in the original post.
@CD blocker
I fully understand you want unchanged. My question was whether you would be happier with 80k or losing S access. Just for me curiosity. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Jul 02, 2014 - 19:28 |
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the team would be pointless without S access on CDB
so they would have to be expensive, and then you'd have to save up to buy them all
this is a bad time though, if it means your starting games are played with more hobos. don't change them, aside from making bull and mino cheaper to compensate for cpomb nerf
marauders don't need to go more expensive if you nerf killstack, i'd maybe make only 1 adjustment to the team which would be to restrict P access to the skaven and the delf only |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jul 02, 2014 - 19:33 |
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Well, the proposed nerf to killstack is pretty minor. I don't think it alone affects marauders and company without additional intervention. |
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Ehlers
Joined: Jun 26, 2006
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Jul 02, 2014 - 20:57 |
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| Quote: | | - marauder 50->60 and gains A access |
| Quote: | | - Piling on: Works only on armor, and moves to agility skill. (Former limits attrition from this source. Latter makes most killstack players 10k more expensive.) |
| Quote: | | It was a typo, meant A access. So access to all skills. |
I see why you gave Chaos Pact marauders A access now.
So a marauder will take, block, dodge, MB, PO, Claw and Guard. So you will have a 6338 120k killer marauder.
Chaos Pact are already broken as it is, why make it more broken? |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 02, 2014 - 22:28 |
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6 skills would cost 120k plus the base price of 60k. It would cost 180k. I don't think it makes a difference in a 1 killer roster, but it makes a minmaxed marauder roster less viable, as the base cost is higher. |
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