logos
Joined: Aug 26, 2003
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 Posted:
Apr 28, 2004 - 20:45 |
 
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Just wondering as i just played a game with my 132/101 gobbo team in the ranked division against a skaven team of 155/158, (granted without really paying attention to the str difference being to much). The game was balanced enough for me that i accepted it, yet i'm not allowed to report it.
Why is this? even though tr was a pretty good match (and we ended up drawing 3-3) |
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LordSigmund
Joined: Jan 28, 2004
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Apr 28, 2004 - 20:46 |
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because TR has nothing to do with how well teams match up against each other, str is a much more accurate way of seeing how well matched teams are and it is an essential fumbbl rule |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 28, 2004 - 22:36 |
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| LordSigmund wrote: | | because TR has nothing to do with how well teams match up against each other, str is a much more accurate way of seeing how well matched teams are and it is an essential fumbbl rule |
That's bologna. TR works fine, and I am in agreement with Logos. It should be either/or. If you can't manage your team better and let yourself suck up so many injuries without getting replacements OR have allowed one player to earn so many SPP's that he raises your TR far higher then what you get for him, then that is your fault. There shouldn't be a rule that prevents me from taking advantage of your poor management.
Asperon Thorn |
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peikko
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 28, 2004 - 22:44 |
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| AsperonThorn wrote: | | There shouldn't be a rule that prevents me from taking advantage of your poor management. |
Or newbie coaches, or suicidical coaches? Theres defination of that, its called cherry picking. |
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PellePirat
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 28, 2004 - 23:03 |
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The only problem I see with TR is MNGs.. If it took those into account it would be fair. |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 28, 2004 - 23:26 |
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| peikko wrote: | | AsperonThorn wrote: | | There shouldn't be a rule that prevents me from taking advantage of your poor management. |
Or newbie coaches, or suicidical coaches? Theres defination of that, its called cherry picking. |
Well there is an easy solution for that. Several actually.
A) Don't play games in which you are being cherry picked.
B) Don't manage your team to oblivion.
If you can't make a personal decision to avoid both those situations then you deserve to get picked off. The LRB Challenge League system (the one in the rulebook) implies that you can and should cherry pick. The Rebbl Challenge PbeM BB league they are notorious for it. But they go only of TR, and that works for them.
As far as Newbie coaches are concerned, that is part of the learning curve. It is just as much of the learning curve as learning that Longbeards shouldn't dodge into tacklezones, (I have seen it, from coaches that told me they were "experienced") especcially as a first action.
Suicidal coaches, are well, suicidal coaches. They have fun doing it. And if they want to do it against my team, or your team or Wuhan's team I don't care. I had originally thought that Christer had designed the site, the leagues, the tourney's, the divisions, and the Open format so that everyone could have fun in as many different ways as they could, but so that everyone could have fun. Now there is a rule that doesn't allow for some games to be played.
I don't like the rule, as I don't like str. I respect the math involved in it, and what it is trying to do, but I think that it really takes away from the off-pitch part of the game that I enjoy nearly as much as the on-pitch portion. Sometimes more. By encouraging players to stop managing thier teams and play by some other formula.
Asperon Thorn |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 28, 2004 - 23:38 |
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| PellePirat wrote: | | The only problem I see with TR is MNGs.. If it took those into account it would be fair. |
Why would that be fair? Why even have MNG's then? If you aren't going to recognize them in your team rating/strength etc. What sort of result is that? Why not just downgrade everything to BH(1-3) or DEAD(4-6)? Then we don't have to worry about those pesky injuries and Missed games.
The fact of the matter is, that TR is not just a measure of how good your team is but how much upkeep it demands, and players that miss a game still need to be paid.
Asperon Thorn |
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origami
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
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Apr 29, 2004 - 00:35 |
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The problem with using TR is the [R] environment. This is not a league where you have a definite beginning, middle, and end. Instead, we have an open environment where you can cherry pick to your heart's content. The benefits of using TR that are listed in above post don't apply to this environment. In fact, it just contributes to more cherrypicking. It was the choice of the admins to sacrifice some of the management aspects in order to have a coach rating that is tied as much as possible to how good of a player you are, not to your abilities as a cherrypicker. I, personally, agree with that choice.
However, the nice thing is that everyone has a choice here. You aren't forced to play [R]. If you are interested in having coach management as a more important factor, then play in the tournaments. Team strength is utterly irrelevant in that environment.
I can't see any reason to complain when you have access to exactly what you want. Getting rid of team str would merely prevent the rest of us from playing in an environment that we prefer. |
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AsperonThorn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 29, 2004 - 02:04 |
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| origami wrote: | | The problem with using TR is the [R] environment. This is not a league where you have a definite beginning, middle, and end. Instead, we have an open environment where you can cherry pick to your heart's content. The benefits of using TR that are listed in above post don't apply to this environment. In fact, it just contributes to more cherrypicking. It was the choice of the admins to sacrifice some of the management aspects in order to have a coach rating that is tied as much as possible to how good of a player you are, not to your abilities as a cherrypicker. I, personally, agree with that choice. |
The benefits of using TR over Str apply to every environment. I play in all Divisons (except faction) and play in all of them for different reasons. I like the open format because I get to choose my opponents. I play up. I play down. But I always used TR over str to choose them. I even had one of the few elf teams to be a participant in the original Anarchist Tourney (Never refused challenges) and that was before the handicap table. I HAD the option to use TR over STR in open, but now I no longer have that choice. Nor do the people and friends that I normally played against that ignored the "made up" number that STR is.
As I recall there were quite a few people upset about that limit so you can't say that because YOU agree with it doesn't mean that the majority do. If you want to avoid cherry picking that you should attach it to something equally complex and invented as the STR formula. Some sort of math combining Coaches Ranking, Team Ranking, and STR. I think it is wrong for a coach that is rated at 200 with 9000 games behind him to play 100 points down to a coach that has the total BB experience comprising of the 3 other games he has played on Fumbbl. But you know what? He might learn something from that game. So maybe that is worth it. It is definately way more with it then denying me the opportunity to play a long time friend, someone that I have played table top with but can't any longer, or someone that I talk to at TBB, a game because while our TR is equal some other made up formula prevents us from playing with our favorite ranked teams. Some formula, that we don't even recognize as official.
As I recall, Christer once told me that open division (now ranked) was suppose to emulate the LRB as closely as Ski Junkie's client allowed, but with the option to pick and choose your opponents. For all the suggestions that have been thrown at Christer since the automation of Fumbbl this is the first time that he has allowed himself to deviate from that philosophy.
Asperon Thorn |
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Bretter
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 29, 2004 - 03:30 |
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Nice to know I'm not the only person who thinks the team ST is a flawed system for selection. My personal opinion, not that it was asked for, but I'll give it anyway, is that it team ST is a guide for selecting fair opponents. However, you need to take into consideration:
1) while the ST may be equal, the handicap rolls could more than unfairly sway the game.
2) The coach is a far more (in)experienced coach. Coach rating tells me more, personally, about my chances. I won't play a coach higher than 180 unless I fully understand that unless Nuffle favors me heavily, I will likely lose.
To be honest, ever since the handicaps were implemented, I think things have been much more even. Asperon, you have said it much more eloquently than I could have, But I play mostly in divX now. Partly cos I hate ageing too, so I'm sure my opinion will either be blasted by the 'popular majority'. |
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deathgerbil
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 29, 2004 - 05:31 |
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well, the strength system says that you should add 5 strength for each handicap that you are going to receive. The +- 40 strength just prevents people from abusing the system, because in most cases, if people are playing a game under 199 strength and have a 40+ strength difference, the games pretty much rigged from the start. If you want to play unbalanced games, there's still the Unrated division and divx for ya. |
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Tribble_the_Unclean
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 29, 2004 - 05:46 |
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But hardly anyone plays in divX or unranked. I have 5 teams in unranked, and ever since the switch, I have been offered one game to play one of those teams.
The new league system almost forces us all to play in ranked if we want to play games, especially if we want to play games that follow the LRB game rules (not league rules, obviously) as close as possible. |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 29, 2004 - 10:50 |
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The only way to change the fact that most games are played in ranked is ... *gasp* ... to create more unranked teams. Besides I know of a couple coaches now that switched entirely from ranked to unranked or divx. Things will start picking up. If you look at the daily stats you'll also notice that quite a number of people _do_ find games in unranked.
-Mnemon |
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Hecropolix
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 29, 2004 - 11:38 |
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I would like to point out that i am highly aposed to even having handycaps at all on fumbbl.
If you choose to play against better team then you have to play against a better team why should fumbbl give you a helping hand? Maybe if all the handycaps had about the same amount of affect but as it is most games the handycaps do barely anything(that girls got talent) and in others they completely descide the outcome of the game(virus). |
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Gibbering_Gambits
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 29, 2004 - 11:48 |
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To get back to the topic of all this, the (R) division is the only division with these restrictions. If a coach or group of coaches is really truely heartbroken by the rules of this division then he/they can switch their teams to the (U) division and play what-ever teams against what-ever-other teams to their hearts content. The reason for Str (and the (R) division) is to keep score and ultimately get an accurate ranking of coaching ability through the coach rating. The STR limitation on games is to prevent people from playing rediculously unbalanced games with the players which are available to their team on a game by game basis. Team Rating does not track potency of a team on a game by game basis, it is a blanket figure or average if every player on your roster were to play every game that is aproximately how Team Rating rates a team. To conclude, in order to keep score of coaching ability and nothing else the Str formula almost works perfectly, it is not a part of the game it is a part of the (R) division and fundamental to the scoring in it.
If you dont like the (R) division you can play in any other division, nobody forces anyone to play in the (R) division. I have gotten games quickly everytime I have searched for a (U) division game, and if more people want games with no limits then I urge you to make or switch your teams to the (U) division as I have. If you want to play competatively with the other coaches on the site and raise your coach ranking (which is also not a part of LRB) then play in (R) division (as I also have and do), and most importantly play by (R) division's rules with out whining. There is at every coaches disposal the ability to play Blood Bowl for what ever reason you want to play Blood Bowl on this site. The choices are yours to make, by not making them people are creating situations which they dislike while totally avoidable in the 1st place. |
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