Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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 Posted:
Apr 13, 2015 - 23:26 |
 
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Wood elves are better oneturners than skaven.
MA10 sidestep is a far better player than MA10 sprint, and oneturns nearly as easily.
Making offense set up first is the same thing as perfect defense every play. Perfect defense completely hoses dash, while bash generally couldn't care less.
If we're gonna change rules, this isn't where we start. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 14, 2015 - 00:37 |
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| Rat_Salat wrote: | Wood elves are better oneturners than skaven.
MA10 sidestep is a far better player than MA10 sprint, and oneturns nearly as easily.
Making offense set up first is the same thing as perfect defense every play. Perfect defense completely hoses dash, while bash generally couldn't care less.
If we're gonna change rules, this isn't where we start. |
I take it you haven't run into a team where there's at least a combined 3 Sidestep/Standfirms to prevent such tomfoolery. Or you haven't played a ton of Nurgle? Not having to initiate a block to get into range is huge, especially if you have Dauntless or Horns on the OTTD and get the one to two assists from your additional GRs necessary for a 2d6 block if they're playing a Back Line OTTD defense. Against Big Box OTTD defense you don't even need to initiate a block, in fact it takes the Big Box off the table. Big Box is way better for chainpush based OTTDs because it will necessitate four 3+ dodges with the OTTDer to get into the endzone and possibly a pass to the OTTDer in a TZ.
It's more likely you'll have a Horns MA10 Surefeet Sprint Block One turner than an MA10, SS, Block, Sure Feet one turner from a skills roll perspective too.
There are just so many ways you can defend against chainpushed based OTTDs either through dwindling the odds or having skills that make them impossible to initiate without Doubles for either Grab or Juggernaut. Tentacles are still an obstacle although I've rarely seen more than one tentacles per team except the last Fumbbl Cup Winner. |
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Relezite
Joined: May 21, 2007
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Apr 14, 2015 - 03:31 |
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With the benefit for future editions, the game could be rebalanced with max base MA 9 in mind. They already capped MA at 10 from 11 probably related the NPE of the one man OTT players. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 14, 2015 - 09:48 |
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Dauntless is another more roll to get the 2d block, that make the one turn even more complicate
We're still talking about a 200k player, with ST2 and AV7. A simple tackle/MB player can smash it in turn 2 of first half
If you face skaven and you have at least a couple of tacklers, let them recive the kickoff in the first half... smash them as much as you can, using your tacklers (with MB AFTER tackle) to catch the gutters (oh, wait, your dwarf blitzer has 3 skill, but no tackle, and your lines are too slow stick on the LOS catch them, again your skill choice fault). If you do not get diced and play decentlyl, you'll force your opponent to score in turn 3-4... than you'll have 13-14 turns to hit, hit and again hit. If at turn 16 the oneturner is still on the pitch, you're not winning 2-1... well, you got diced or your opponent played very well, or you made some position mistake... your opponent will have his 51% to tie (or win if you didn't manage to stay 2-1 at turn 16) the match...
Completely and perfectly fair
I remember a whine by a dwarf (something like 7 guards, and all bltzer/troll slayers with MB and PO), because the first half I flee all the time, sometimes even refusing to blitz to not risk stay too near him. The half ended with only 3 or 4 linerats out of the pitch (only one injury) and 1-1 thanks to my oneturner. Oh, well, your fault you didn't give tackle to your four 3 skill positionals, you decided to recive first, giving me the chance to flee, giving me two consecutive ko rolls to recover the rat and play the second half with 10 rats on the pitch
Next time, sacrifice a couple of PO to add a couple of tackle on your positionals (the lines are so slow and usually so in the middle of the fight that the gutters are unreachable for them), let me recive in the first half, force me to score early, without being too occupied to make casuality spp with unusefull linerats. Then play 13-14 turn yourself.
It's not so "complicate". You need only a couple more tackle, and some skaven specific strategy
This discussions come out because a black box player, every now and then, meet a skaven one turner, lose the match because of lacking tackle and probably made the mistake to recive first, and whine. After a couple of days, this guy meet another skaven, without a oneturner, and manage to tie, or win, or even lose... and think it's more "fair"... but the guy didn't recognized that the rats were the same of the previous match, with a dead oneturner less and a rookie gutter more. Because, expecially in the box (not so much in ranked), one turners die, and die a lot, usually when the meet some tacklePOMBERS (obviously much more deadly than CPOMBERS for skavens) |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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Apr 14, 2015 - 12:27 |
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@ Leilond : my 2 cents. You spend an awful lot of time complaining about the box, bashers, cPOMB and gods knows what again. You should spec and analyse good coaches games instead - I'm sure you would end up with a positive win/loss record. Serious. |
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GLN 17 is out!
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Apr 14, 2015 - 13:03 |
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is this thread about Leilond posting the same arguments over and over again? |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 14, 2015 - 13:10 |
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| Kam wrote: | | @ Leilond : my 2 cents. You spend an awful lot of time complaining about the box, bashers, cPOMB and gods knows what again. You should spec and analyse good coaches games instead - I'm sure you would end up with a positive win/loss record. Serious. |
Buahahahaha
I never ever complained about pombers here
I've got better results in the box than in ranked
My results are still bad because I'm not a great coach, I like to do very difficult dice rolling action, for the fun of fluff and because I'm crap, but I'm less crap in box (or pheraps I'm a very bad picker). Playing skaven, with only 2 AV8 players, every CPOMBER is a one skill waste with me... that "claw" is nearly a free 20K TV for me, thus I cannot complain at all... I always thought that the team that hate claw more, are Orcs and Dwarf, high AV without Claw access
I simply explained with some clear example, how this thinking that gutter runners are overpowered come out and how completely inconsisten it is
This thread was born because a Chaos Pact team met a Skaven team, at 1250TV, without a single Tackle. Yes, the thread opener wrote this after that match. If you say me that a such a match is going to be played and I've some money to spare, I will put it on the skaven, without looking at the rosters at all, because I know that a 1250TV skaven will have at least 4 blodgers and if the opponent do not have tackle, it will be a nightmare for him
Every now and then some thinking like this come out, because a team completely unprepared to face blodgers, meet skaven or (sometimes) woodies.
I simply suggested to take a couple of tackle as FIRST SKILL for a couple of positionals (after block if they have not it, obviously). If you do not do this, that's your fault you're not able to stop skaven gutters (a decent oneturner is a 4 skill gutter runner, thus you should have PLENTY of time to skillup some tacklers)
If you consider this a "whine against bashers", you really need to read with much more attention |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Apr 14, 2015 - 13:19 |
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| Kam wrote: | | @ Leilond : my 2 cents. You spend an awful lot of time complaining about the box, bashers, cPOMB and gods knows what again. You should spec and analyse good coaches games instead - I'm sure you would end up with a positive win/loss record. Serious. |
I dunno how relevant win/loss really is. A lot of people just don't want to do it. win or lose.
I'm just hoping that the new Cyanide game does not eat away too much at our critical mass. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2015 - 14:21 |
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@Kam
I completey do not pay any attention to win rate, but...
Out of curiosity, I looked to your profile... and what did I discovered? Your black blox record is 0/0/2...
Well, now I'm probably doing something wrong, but if I read it correctly, you played only 2 black box match (50 TOTAL if you add all your retired teams) and lost it... now, again, if I'm not doing something wrong, it look like that when you write about black box, you're talking about something you haven't any experience on.
You play only ranked, talk about ranked
I'm crap at this game, but I'm a bit better in black box than in ranked, again, it could be because I'm not a good picker or because those bashing mania in black box create a lack of tackle that is good for skaven. By the way, when I talk about the box, I talk about something I know (more than 100 matches played there only with my active teams) while you don't (less than 50 matches even considering all your retired teams, the strongest at 1380TV halfling)
Cheer |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Apr 14, 2015 - 14:33 |
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keep sprint as is
nothing funnier than watching a gutter runner die in the endzone. |
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Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 14, 2015 - 14:38 |
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| Arktoris wrote: | keep sprint as is
nothing funnier than watching a gutter runner die in the endzone. |
Expecially when this happen for a good double 1,1... I remember I lost my first gutter this way, a "easy" dodge in end zone (here on fumbbl, in real blood bowl I lost my first gutter because of a dirty player, more "conventional" death) |
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Fabulander
Joined: Oct 11, 2014
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Apr 16, 2015 - 10:59 |
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With regards to whether OTTD's provide 'free' touchdowns or not... Of course they don't nothing is free in blood bowl. But it sure feels that way when you never get to take any defensive action. I can understand the frustration with a natural oneturner, since you just deploy your players across the board and then hope that his oneturner fails, without getting any chance to actively influence it. Even with chainpushing, at least your positioning and skill choices matter a bit more, and with TTM at least it's a funny rule.
It's not a terrible thing for the game, but just like basher teams getting 3 or more free blocks against inactive LOS players on a one turn drive, it isn't very satisfying to either player, and it can be annoying to get to a hard fought 2 - 1 at turn 16/15, and then sort of just flip a coin for winning or drawing. I kinda like the idea of just not playing an extra drive after a 8/7 or 16/15 score, it might be a good house rule. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 16, 2015 - 11:17 |
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| Fabulander wrote: | With regards to whether OTTD's provide 'free' touchdowns or not... Of course they don't nothing is free in blood bowl. But it sure feels that way when you never get to take any defensive action. I can understand the frustration with a natural oneturner, since you just deploy your players across the board and then hope that his oneturner fails, without getting any chance to actively influence it. Even with chainpushing, at least your positioning and skill choices matter a bit more, and with TTM at least it's a funny rule.
It's not a terrible thing for the game, but just like basher teams getting 3 or more free blocks against inactive LOS players on a one turn drive, it isn't very satisfying to either player, and it can be annoying to get to a hard fought 2 - 1 at turn 16/15, and then sort of just flip a coin for winning or drawing. I kinda like the idea of just not playing an extra drive after a 8/7 or 16/15 score, it might be a good house rule. |
Sure, but then you have to give some boost to those team that are designed to have some OTTD chance. The OTTD chance is considered during the rule design and the game test. If you remove a power, a skill, or any type of "opportunity to score" from a race, you have to give something back
Again, considering the PERFECT situation for a OTTD attempt, that means
1- No perfect defence rolled
2- No pitch invasion make it harder (stunning the one turner or the designed handoff)
3- The ball scatter enough near to make an handoff
4- No exaustion make it impossible
5- No pouring rain make it more difficult (pickup and catch)
6- No rocks hit a key player
The chance to make a pickup with a thrower (sure hand), handoff, 3x go for it, 3 x dodge (usually 4+ 3+ 2+, but let's think it is because of some lucky injury on opponent 3+ 3+ 2+) with a +MA/Block/Sprint/Sure feet gutter is 40% (57% with a reroll)
If you have at least 4 tacklers, the chance become 23%! 48% with a reroll!!
And all have to go well... the scatter, the kickoff table.
Put one kicker and four tackler, and the chance are likely go down to 43%.
And this means you wasn't able to put out of the pitch enough rat in 16 of your turns and didn't forced your opponent to use his rerolls
I can agree that can look "not nice", but if you remove this opportunity for some fragile teams, you have to give them something back, and not simply "remove it"
And you're not considering that usually, at least in the box, a oneturner do not survive more than a half a dozen matches, more or less, except for some rare and very famous exceptions |
Last edited by Leilond on %b %16, %2015 - %11:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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bigGuy
Joined: Sep 21, 2009
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Apr 16, 2015 - 11:26 |
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Vs oneturner team choose Kick first. You will have 15 turns to hunt onetruner.
Buy wizard and bolt oneturner.
Buy dirty trick cards, and make GFIs 5+. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 11:34 |
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| bigGuy wrote: | | Vs oneturner team choose Kick first. You will have 15 turns to hunt onetruner. |
This is the key
ALWAYS make the skaven recive first. Hit as hard as you can, do not try to stop them score, but try to force them to score as quick as possible. Use your 2-3 tacklers (because you MUST have 2-3 tacklers when your opponent has a oneturner, that means FOUR skills) and your dirty players to hunt all gutters first, all lines second.
If you "recive first" and stall until turn 8, it's all your fault, because:
1- I will keep the oneturner in the reserve for the entire drive.
2- I will have 2 consecutive KO rolls after your turn 8
3- I will start second half stalling a bit before scoring, giving you pratically only 5-6 turns to hunt for the oneturner, that is very quick and probably out of range for 80% of the time
If you "kick first" and force your opponent to score, say, at turn 3 you'll have
1- 5 turns to hit as hard as you can
2- If you sall until turn 8, you give only ONE Ko rolls after your bash, and you can make your opponent be forced to deploy the oneturner in second half from the beginning
3- 8 full turn to hunt the one turner, and try to whipe out all the gutter and thrower you can, making one turn attempt chance drastically go down or being impossible
You need kick skill, 2-3 tacklers, kick first in the first half
If you play vs skaven as you would play vs humans, that's your fault |
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