Fabulander
Joined: Oct 11, 2014
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 Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 11:45 |
 
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Sure, for skaven it is currently one of the tools in the kit. Not so for a lot of other teams, but they've never had them so you don't hear undead coaches demanding the right to do OTTDs. I don't think I would consider skaven to be a weak team, even without natural oneturners. Fragile, sure, but very good at a number of things. It'd be a much worse house rule for stunties, who really need to utilize any tools at their disposal. As I said, I 'kinda like the idea', and will give it some consideration, but that's it for now.
As mentioned, OTTDs are not a terrible thing for the game, but I get the frustration. In many ways the problem is not just one turn touchdowns, but any one turn drives that can lead to sudden scores or excessive casualties with only one of the two coaches making any active decisions. In a two player game, it's just not very satisfying, IMHO. |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Apr 16, 2015 - 11:54 |
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FUMBBL Cup XII final anyone?
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3513479
now that's silly oneturning action 
anyway, I don't think MA10+sprint is too powerful.
they're still only av 7 so removed pretty easily with a good tackle + boot |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 16, 2015 - 12:04 |
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| Fabulander wrote: | Sure, for skaven it is currently one of the tools in the kit. Not so for a lot of other teams, but they've never had them so you don't hear undead coaches demanding the right to do OTTDs. I don't think I would consider skaven to be a weak team, even without natural oneturners. Fragile, sure, but very good at a number of things. It'd be a much worse house rule for stunties, who really need to utilize any tools at their disposal. As I said, I 'kinda like the idea', and will give it some consideration, but that's it for now.
As mentioned, OTTDs are not a terrible thing for the game, but I get the frustration. In many ways the problem is not just one turn touchdowns, but any one turn drives that can lead to sudden scores or excessive casualties with only one of the two coaches making any active decisions. In a two player game, it's just not very satisfying, IMHO. |
Each team MUST have the same turn played
If you play first and you play 8 turns, I DESERVE to play a turn, because the seconf half, there's the possibility that I lose the ball or being forced to score before turn 8 and thus, if you stall until turn 8, both of us play the full 8 turns in second half and if you prevented me to play my 8th turn in first half, we end with 16 turns played by you and 15 played by me and this is completely unacceptable
Thus, the "do not play a drive if only one turn remain" can result in a team play one turn less than the other, that is completely unfair. Expecially because if you force me to score in turn 6 in the first half, and then manage to stall until turn 8 in the second half, you'll have TWO opportunity to free bash the LOS, while I will have only one, again unfair
I perfectly understand the frustration of the OTTD, I play also Chaos in the box and recived it sometimes but
1- It's not simple at all. With a good deploy and team development, and with perfect rolls for scatter and kick off table, you have no more than 48% (if we add all the bad result of the kick off table and scatter and the kick skill to the calculation I think we cannot go over 35-40%)
2- You have to develope a gutter to AT LEAST 4 skills and in the moment he get the +MA (1st or 2nd skill, rarely you give sprint to a gutter if he has no +MA) it will become the primary target from now on
3- You have to protect him, all the match, all the macthes, and I rarely see a oneturner survive for more than 10-15 matches
And yes, the OTTD is part of the weapon of skaven, to counter the 4 rats on the pitch at turn 16 and the like. If you remove that weapon, you're weaking the race and must give something in excenge. A discount of the price of gutters or blitzers? Thick skull to lines? Free fend and +10k to lines? I don't know, something
By the way, you nerf a race when that race is winning too much and too often and it result in a clear unbalance issue
It doesn't look like skaven win too much, nor too often, nor in tournaments ([R] or [B]) nor in leagues. It's a nice race, with 4 great but very fragile players, but surely not so overpowered to need any type of nerf |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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Apr 16, 2015 - 12:39 |
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| Roland wrote: | FUMBBL Cup XII final anyone?
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3513479
now that's silly oneturning action
anyway, I don't think MA10+sprint is too powerful.
they're still only av 7 so removed pretty easily with a good tackle + boot |
I don't think it's broken to the point we have to reform the BBRC and release a new ruleset within a week, but the fact those teams survived the biggest tournament on FUMBBL show they don't die that easily.
In order to remove them, they must be on the pitch as well, so if your opponent has a bench, you're screwed unless the bashing game is unexpectedly working.
As for the argument "rats need that to win", that reminds me the Narrowing the Tiers guys who want to add AG4 Fling positionals. They could 1) accept that tiers ain't meant to be narrowed, and 2) learn to play with Flings instead of blaming the team for their loses. But that's asking too much, so they want to introduce what would be the most broken positional of the game instead (AG4 + Right Stuff means AG5 + Right Stuff flings are gonna be incredibly common and completely break the team). |
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GLN 17 is out!
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Apr 16, 2015 - 12:45 |
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| Kam wrote: | | ... but the fact those teams survived the biggest tournament on FUMBBL show they don't die that easily. |
you're right   , usually they're a very good target
I guess it takes an excellent coach to keep them I alive for so long  |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 16, 2015 - 12:45 |
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"Rats need that to win" is an absourdity, and who say that, cannot play skaven properly (like me, by the way, but I recognize that it's my skill fault as a coach and not the common deaths of my oneturners the reason of my bad records )
Rats can win without it, but the rules are written and tested with that POSSIBILITY and thus, the remove of the natural OTTD must be "payed back" in some way.
I can perfectly live with my skaven without the MA10 sprint, but if you nerf a bit a race, you have to boost it in some way or another. Fend on the lines and 10k less on the Rat Ogre?
P.S.
A match of two years ago as proof of the power of oneturners? Are there other one turners in some important tournament finals? |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Apr 16, 2015 - 12:55 |
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Would the best CRP race need a buff if you nerfed them a bit? |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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Fabulander
Joined: Oct 11, 2014
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Apr 16, 2015 - 13:16 |
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| Leilond wrote: | Each team MUST have the same turn played
If you play first and you play 8 turns, I DESERVE to play a turn, because the seconf half, there's the possibility that I lose the ball or being forced to score before turn 8 and thus, if you stall until turn 8, both of us play the full 8 turns in second half and if you prevented me to play my 8th turn in first half, we end with 16 turns played by you and 15 played by me and this is completely unacceptable |
Some rules for overtime mean more receiving drives for one team than the other, which isn't fair at all, but that's the game. I'm just saying that one turn drives are at best pointless and at worst very disadvantageous to one team, which is an annoying aspect of an otherwise very good two player game. This isn't about nerfing one race at all, as any races can at least attempt a completion or some casualties from their one turn drives. Forgetting the skaven for a moment, it's a question of whether or not the game should have 'single player' drives, and that's a way bigger question, which I find to be interesting. Anyhow, I can tell you feel somewhat more strongly about this than I do, so don't worry, the current rules aren't going anywhere anytime soon  |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 16, 2015 - 14:28 |
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| Fabulander wrote: | | Leilond wrote: | Each team MUST have the same turn played
If you play first and you play 8 turns, I DESERVE to play a turn, because the seconf half, there's the possibility that I lose the ball or being forced to score before turn 8 and thus, if you stall until turn 8, both of us play the full 8 turns in second half and if you prevented me to play my 8th turn in first half, we end with 16 turns played by you and 15 played by me and this is completely unacceptable |
Some rules for overtime mean more receiving drives for one team than the other, which isn't fair at all, but that's the game. I'm just saying that one turn drives are at best pointless and at worst very disadvantageous to one team, which is an annoying aspect of an otherwise very good two player game. This isn't about nerfing one race at all, as any races can at least attempt a completion or some casualties from their one turn drives. Forgetting the skaven for a moment, it's a question of whether or not the game should have 'single player' drives, and that's a way bigger question, which I find to be interesting. Anyhow, I can tell you feel somewhat more strongly about this than I do, so don't worry, the current rules aren't going anywhere anytime soon |
Well, you cannot discuss a rule change (even if it's not probably it will come) "forgetting a race". That race is part of the game and the rule you want to change is part of the balance.
One turn drives aren't pointless, because I can make some spp in that turn (bashing and passing) and remove this chance to one team, isn't fair. Ok, give me 3 free spp then... I think isn't the right way, but at least I get compensated for what I lost
And by the way, both team will have two LOS block turns in the game (except for blitz kickoff, that I consider unfair, even if skaven benefit from it GREATLY, more than a lot of other teams), I do not understand how removing one LOS block turns to only those team not designed to stall (we know that stalling with dwarves is a bit easier than stalling with skaven, all AV7 and AG3) can be fair.
There are a lot of things in this game that someone find fun and other doesn't. I think that exaustion, pitch invasion, perfect defence and blitz, are not fun events (even if some of these are favourable to my preferred race), but I know that if I remove some of this, I remove some sort of balance. I find killstack orribly bad designed and amazon absolutely too powerfull at low TV, but I also know that some things are more "bad" in the box than in ranked and absolutely acceptable in a scheduled league. Thus, it's not simply "a rule" but a sum of things |
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Fabulander
Joined: Oct 11, 2014
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Apr 16, 2015 - 16:19 |
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| Leilond wrote: | Well, you cannot discuss a rule change (even if it's not probably it will come) "forgetting a race". That race is part of the game and the rule you want to change is part of the balance.
One turn drives aren't pointless, because I can make some spp in that turn (bashing and passing) and remove this chance to one team, isn't fair. |
Well, this started out as a thread about sprint that didn't seem interested in Bull Centaurs, then it was about OTTDs but not so much about halflings, now it's about single player drives but only about skaven, so I'd say you can definitely forget a race I am joking, and you are right of course. What I meant was that the suggestion of not playing one turn drives's would have much bigger consequences than just nerfing skaven, and addresses different issues aside from team balance - like overall game rhythm, the effectiveness of stalling and so on. It seems I am less interested in discussing skaven specifically, but you go right ahead
For most teams, one turn drives are pointless with regards to winning the match. So for most teams, removing them will not influence the match result, and what few star player points and opportunities for killing are lost probably isn't terribly bad. Even for bashers, the extra blocks before half time aren't always as important, since the opponent gets two chances for his KO players to return, and the extra blocks in turn 16 are pointless with regards to the match. Farming a completion when there is no chance of scoring also seems a bit sad. Some star player points would be lost, a few more players might leave the pitch alive, but few teams would really miss this, and anyways a rule for stopping at 8/7 and 16/15 td's would be the same for both sides.
For some teams though, these single turns are unique chances to exploit the gameplay representation of time - the turn system - to gain a very large advantage, not just gaining spp but actually influencing the outcome of a match. Even if the chance is fairly small, it is something that other teams don't have at all (or have much more difficult access to, as with chain pushing, which can also be countered by certain skills). This is where I see those turns as worse than pointless. It's not like one team has one more turn than the other, but often they will have one more turn that has actual relevance to the game result, than the other.
Of course, this is pure speculation and opinion, I just liked the idea that was presented, and now I'm throwing words around. There are many valid arguments against my line of reasoning, like the consequences for stunties. I am also of the opinion that the current match result should generally be more important than long term team development, but some might disagree and really miss those T16 bonus-blocks to gain a few points. Hence, even just as a house rule, removing one turn drives would be for the few, and would require more thought and testing.
Have a nice day. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 17, 2015 - 10:49 |
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Some teams, IMHO, deserve the OTTD because they have very big difficulty to stall the match and have high chance to play the second half (if your opponent chosed to recive first and hit hard) with few players. With 8-9 (or 11 for some elf teams) AV7 players on the pitch, 5-6 of them with AG3 for skaven (even more difficult to reposition the team), it's very complicated to keep the clock running and still screen the ball carrier. Thus, usually, those teams are forced to score around turn 3-4, unless dices help a lot expecially with injury rolls, or the opponent choose to go for injuries instead of pressuring the TD (his fault then).
If you remove the OTTD opportunity, always IMHO, you're nerfing this team, and not "a bit", because your opponent can finally stop forcing you to score early, forgot the ball, and only think about hitting as hard as he can. A change like this will completely modify the game strategy against these teams. It's not a "minor change", it's a HUGE change to the game. Good or bad? My opinion is clear, but it doesn't matter very much MY opinion (surely nor more than your or anyone else's), it's an huge change that will require good tests, to see how much the records of some races change because of that... Some hundreads of matches to make a significant stat. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Apr 17, 2015 - 11:19 |
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Are we still talking about replacing one of the weakest skills in the game for being broken?
Because then I'll start a blog about replacing Pass Block next. |
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Gnomes are trash
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