Killing_Time
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
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 Posted:
Apr 16, 2015 - 15:14 |
 
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Hi Folks
I have a Dark Elf team in a private Cyanide league which currently looks like this.
4 Blitzers: (Dodge/Tackle) (Dodge/Guard) (Dodge/Side Step) ()
2 Witch Elves: (Block/Side Step) (Ag5/Block)
2 Runners: (S4/Ag5/Block/Dodge) (Block)
4 Linemen: (Kick/Wrestle) (Wrestle) (Block)
Now I know what the community feels about Runners, and yes I know I have two of them. I like them, and the stat freak is currently the league star player, so I'm certainly not firing him anytime soon.
Does anyone have advice on how to advance the rest of the team?
Both Witches are near their next skills, as is the star Runner.
Is it worth farming TDs to the rookie Blitzer to get him Blodge asap or should I just treat him as expendable? He was a replacement for a dead Blodge strip baller.
Are there any specific skills you'd like to see on the team, or any obvious routs to take the current crop of players?
Is all of this just asking for them all to be killed in their next match?
My next game is against a pretty useful Khemri team with 4 well skilled TGs and a Blodge/Fend/Sure Hands Throw-Ra who acts as the main (only) ball carrier. What's my best tactic against such a team?
Thanks in advance for any advice. |
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kilinrax
Joined: Jan 12, 2015
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Apr 16, 2015 - 15:58 |
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I wouldn't normally give a runner Sure Hands (they can Dump Off if hit with Strip Ball, so the skills overlap redundantly rather than stack), but being able to SH pick up with a +AG stat freak in TZs is too useful to pass up. Also with +ST I'd be less concerned about putting a AV7 runner in contact with the enemy.
I'd consider the same for the +AG witch, they're both quite brittle players so two of them isn't redundant. I tend to prefer Sure Feet over Leap as a follow up skill, but you could go either way.
The Blodge/SS witch I'd give Tackle.
There are far more experienced DElf coaches here who might tell you differently. Listen to their advice over mine if they comment - Licker or Rat_Salat, if they do, in particular. |
Last edited by kilinrax on %b %16, %2015 - %17:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 16, 2015 - 16:00 |
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If you can get a touchdown on that blitzer without too much risk, it's a good idea to get him to 6.
Now that you have a +ST/+AG, blodge runner, he's no longer garbage. Of course, since you built this player on a runner chassis, you can't get all the skills you want. The answer to the question "what is his next skill" is in my mind a no-brainer, leap. Unfortunately, he's not going to get another skill until legend.
If you had built this player on a witch elf or Blitzer chassis, you would have an extra skill to work with. Since you didn't, you're going to miss out on Sidestep, Sure Hands, Strip Ball, or another good skill that is going to work nicely on a 7/4/5/7 Block, Dodge, Leap guy.
As for specific skills, Dodge, Sidestep, Diving Tackle on your first "boring" blitzer is a nice way to go. Get a double, you're hurting for mighty blow. |
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Killing_Time
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
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Apr 16, 2015 - 16:10 |
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The Runner has been brilliant, and Ag5 Dump Off has netted me a few nice TDs.
I like to think he acts like a good running No.10 in Rugby - he really controls play, can blitz through traffic and can spread the ball out wide once he's been closed down.
I was thinking Leap for the Ag5 Witch. Blodge/SS witch I think tackle is certain unless she gets a double for Juggernaut.
I guess Leap would be great on the Runner too, but I was considering NoS too...
The team horribly lacks MB. I'm hoping to get a double on one of the skilled blitzers (preferably the tackle one obvs) but Nuffle has so far declined. |
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kilinrax
Joined: Jan 12, 2015
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Apr 16, 2015 - 16:19 |
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I wouldn't get NoS without Pass, and I wouldn't get Pass given the options your stat freak runner now has, and you only have 2 skill slots left. Leap, SS, SH are all much more useful. |
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seanh1986
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
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Apr 16, 2015 - 16:27 |
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Leap + Frenzy is a nasty, nasty combo... Especially with a high Ag witch (see stun me on my Masochistic Elves. Sure she has 6 Ag not 5, but the concept is basically the same... the 2+ leaps are nasty... Great for surfing people they didn't think could be surfed, especially with another witch who has side step.
Someone's 4 squares from the sidelines? Ok! Leap over, push, push into the other Witch's TZ, push, push... AND SURFED.
Even just the threat of that (if they are aware) can affect how an opponent plays.
I wouldn't take NoS on the runner, because dump-off is quick passes only, so it's a 'waste' of the 5 Ag in that context.
Leap is great for situations where it'd be a tough dodge in, but an easy dodge out (e.g., ball surrounded by a couple guys, you're on the 'wrong side', leap over, 2+ dodge out)... Even without sure hands, that's a great move, so I'd strongly consider leap on the Runner... Leaping on 2+ with elves wins games... I've won multiple games because my witch had high AG and could leap. |
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Killing_Time
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
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Apr 16, 2015 - 16:31 |
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I think he's my biggest headache. So many options.
SH - Keeps the ball safe against strip ball sackers when I don't have the support to dump off to. Gives him options for hoovering up loose ball in traffic.
Leap - Gets him out of traffic easier, lets him act as a secondary blitzer/cage sacker
SS - Traffic control
NoS - always dumping off on a 2+ regardless of TZs
Tackle - becomes primary ball hawk |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 16, 2015 - 16:40 |
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I hate the way that team is built, but you built it and have some good stats to work with.
1. Fire the 2nd runner, he is redundant and a trash player anyway. Do this even if you don't have cash, or just put him on the LOS and pray for a quick death.
2. It would be nice to add mighty blow somewhere, but you also lack guard (one is workable, but 2 or more is significantly better) and strip ball and tackle (one shouldn't be enough).
3. Against Khemri? If your armor/injuries hold up it should be an easy win. If he has a tackle/MB blitzer you need to try and remove him, otherwise you just have to hope that the TGs are not effective. If they don't have MB you can mark them a bit more judiciously with your line elfs, and even the odd blodger. If they have MB you will only mark them when it's necessary. Otherwise I'd probably prefer kicking 1st, but your team isn't that well set up to steal the ball, so receive first, stall as best you can, but be sure you score, even if a turn or three earlier than you want.
On defense you want to kick deep, and hope they over commit to the line leaving you the ability to put some elfs in the back field between his TGs/skeles and whereever the ball winds up. You don't even have to try to blitz the ball right away, you just need to muck up his ability to get into a cage so that on the next turn his positioning is hopefully even worse and then you have a better shot at the ball.
Failing all that you simply play double stack defense and cede ground slowly, the goal is to force them to take a positional risk on turn 7 so that you can position to make scoring very difficult. Not losing players is somewhat key, but frankly in a lot of elf vs. Khemri matchups it's not dictated as much by the actual play as it is by the CAS dice. If the Khemri are winning this you will be playing for a 1:1 or 2:2 draw most of the time.
Well unless the coach is really bad, but only you know your relative skill level compared to his.
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?op=view&id=3643828
My most recent DE vs. Khemri matchup. Not that my team is built like yours, but you might get some ideas from it.
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?op=view&id=3573253
Is an older match (and apparently I wrote up a long summary so it must have been a good one for me  ) but again, might show some of the tactics employed to get a win.
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?op=view&id=3536472
Is an even older one where the DE got beat up pretty good but still managed the 2:1 win. |
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Killing_Time
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
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Apr 16, 2015 - 17:04 |
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To be fair I'm not happy with the balance either.
The second runner was definitely a mistake, and I lost my dedicated sacking blitzer a couple of games ago. Blodge/Tackle/SB - DEAD apoth DEAD
Then his replacement died in the very next game so I'm horribly short of cash and lacking a key member of the team too.
Guard v MB is kind of moot considering how sparse the doubles have been.
I reckon it'll be MB on a Blitzer and Guard on a Lineman. Still think Jug on the SS witch though. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 16, 2015 - 17:11 |
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NOS would be an awful choice. Leap is the correct choice on an AG5 elf the majority of the time. Having multiple AG5 leap players is not redundant, it's awesome.
Nerves of steel is a highly situational skill, and going down the trap runner skill progression path of NOS/Pass/Accurate really just exasperates the already poor choice to build on that 7/3/4/7 chassis in the first place. You've made a good decision to go with core skills to this point. Nerves of steel is something you might use once in a game, and with AG5, I question if you even need at all. Sure, it would be nice to dump off on a 2+, but in the grand scheme of things, 3+ works 66% of the time, and even 4+ is a 50/50 shot. You've invested enough in this gimmick already by simply taking the runner in the first place.
On the flip side, taking leap on AG5 lets you RELIABLY do some incredible things that are simply impossible to pull off without taking the skill. It's an absolute game changer for elves, and is frankly mandatory for optimal elf play. Having that 2+ leaping ability on a player with ST4 is another quantum leap in the threat level to your opponent, giving you the ability to threaten 2D blocks on any player on the pitch. You dictate positioning, you prevent stalls. It completely changes the way elves play.
Not taking leap on a 7/4/5/7 blodger is pretty much unthinkable. Not taking leap in favor or nerves of steel would be tragic.
Strip ball at legend over sure hands for me, but that's one that can be debated. Leap isn't up for debate, this is the rare blood bowl situation that there just isn't a valid argument for anything else. It's that good. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 16, 2015 - 17:19 |
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I see, well that's always annoying, it's hard to duplicate certain skill stacks on elfs because of the cost and the fact that it's so much nicer to have differentiated players to handle the other duties.
But yah, you probably need to prioritize another tackle, and I'd take MB on any player who rolls a double, not just wait for it on a blitzer. Well wrestle linemen aren't great for it, but they aren't great for guard either.
I'm not a fan of juggs either, but some swear by it, I simply don't see the opportunity to surf with it that often as being worth turning down MB.
Since you are in a league you have the luxury of knowing your up coming matchups (or likely matchups depending on what format it is) so you can target certain skills out of order if they will help more immediately.
Taking strip ball immediately for example might be a good investment, as with taking tackle on the blitzer rather than dodge. You can also finagle the inducements to a degree, which is why I suggest just plain firing your 2nd runner. Yes, 12 players is really nice, but if that 12th player is giving up a wizard to the opponent I think it's actually safer to play with 11 (you are AV8... mostly) and not have to face the wizard.
Of course, it is all matchup dependent though. |
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Killing_Time
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
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Apr 16, 2015 - 17:22 |
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Hehe
Well that settles that then.
EDIT:
Well there obviously won't be any new skills going into the scrap against Khemri - though tackle would be the choice here as his ball carrier has sure hands and dodge.
I'll have to look at TV to see if I'm giving up anything too much by keeping the Runner.
Next up after that is a very bashy chaos team.
Very. |
Last edited by Killing_Time on %b %16, %2015 - %17:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 16, 2015 - 17:26 |
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Oh, and that runner skill...
It's sure hands without a doubt for me. But leap isn't bad, it just wouldn't be necessary for the way I'd likely play him. I'd put leap on the AG5 witch though, no doubt there.
Side step would be the other immediate thought, so that on the dump off you can still place him where you want him. If you are serious about NoS I'd take pass instead, better value most of the time since you can't reroll the dump off anyway, and it lets you actually pass with him more easily. Not that I'd take either, but if you insist on taking a P skill then pass is the one I'd take. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 16, 2015 - 17:26 |
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| Killing_Time wrote: | | Guard v MB is kind of moot considering how sparse the doubles have been. |
Of all the elves, DE can make the best use of guard. Sidestepping guard blitzers are a huge pain in the ass, and unlike other elves you get four of them, so you can dedicated one or two to marking.
Still, it's really hard to pass up mighty blow on your first double. The impact (pun intended) of a mobile, AG4 blodge player with mighty blow is big. You can and should blitz with that player every turn, unless you are making a play for the ball carrier or pushing someone out of bounds. It's not uncommon for AV8 elves to match removals with teams that, on paper, look much more dangerous. If you limit your opponent's mighty blow hits to one blitz per turn and return with one of your own, the casualty list at the end of the game can often favor the elves.
This is a key strength of Dark Elves that tend to give them a reputation for newbie hunting around here. What looks like an elf team may well have serious teeth. You would be well advised to follow that template, regardless of if you are hunting newbies or legends. |
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Killing_Time
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
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Apr 16, 2015 - 17:32 |
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AHH
I guess we'll see what comes first. If the Witch gets Leap quickly I may go SH on the Runner.
Any doubles at all would be nice. |
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