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bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 19, 2016 - 15:59 Reply with quote Back to top

"i think the mighty blow +1av and injury will turn out too strong"
This is grossly broken if this is how you intended. Mighty Blow is borderline broken as of now. Boosting it asking for trouble. (I would rather make it +1 on injury roll only, which would grossly fix the killstack issues, as no armor would decrease below 7.)

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Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: Mar 19, 2016 - 16:15 Reply with quote Back to top

One turning is not terrible. Natural or really easy to develop one turners are terrible. All taking it away does is make turn 8 pointless when facing the 2-1 stall from a bash team.

I don't really play teams that can one turn easy much but I feel it gives the teams I do play too much power to remove it totally from all but stunty players.

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Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: Mar 19, 2016 - 16:28 Reply with quote Back to top

The other thing I just remembered. I pretty much have never heard the apoth complained about in the manner of it being changed. So I don't see where that is coming from. I think it is fine right now and think the changes would actually protect legends more as any injury can be made not game changing. Whilst now a death could still be a death with the apoth use. There are few times a minus stat on a legend is instantly retireable, often even two perms. So I think it makes the apoth even more likely to be saved to use on legends.

Just as an example my only near legend is -AV niggle. Under this apoth he would have niether of those and be 100% injury free. Hence why it seems it's effects would be the opposite of what you think it will be.

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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 26, 2016 - 12:34
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Sorry it took a while to respond to this, I didn't notice it.

@Reisender: Thanks! The rosters were the first, and the main part of what I was trying to do. I wanted to create something that I could implement on FUMBBL and with custom rosters in the making I thought any changes that could be done on a roster level would be easy to implement. I'm hopefully going to run them as a league when it's possible.

I like the suggested goblin changes. I was trying to avoid making too many changes to rosters I was already happy with which is why I left Goblins mostly alone. I think there's merit in both options though.

I haven't been through each skill, so there are probably a bunch more that could be changed. The Rules changes were all added on afterwards, and though I've put them together they can work independently of the roster changes. I don't really like the idea of diving catch adding to hand-offs for thematic reasons though.

@bgh: The Mighty Blow change is in blue, so it's only a thought for now and not something I've considered too deeply. I think though that with the reduced effect of PO that Mb could get away with being a bit better. It doesn't need it perhaps, but I like attrition to be high in Blood Bowl and Mb is a skill that's widely available. Mb was +1 to both armour and injury in 3rd edition and wasn't really complained about, so I don't think it'd be too great a problem (but then DP was +2 +2 Very Happy)

@matthueycamo: I get what your point about one-turning, but while stopping it may lead to a dead turn 8 I really dislike the idea of not being able to oppose something. BB is turn based, and for one side to get a score with the other having no chance to counter it or respond just feels cheap.

I've heard the Apo complaing a number of times. I don't mind the current apo too much, I only addressed it as I'd seen it come up several times.
I think your example is a little flawed. There are no recorded stats on how many times that Legend has been saved from Death by an apo. Maybe those current injuries were apo re-rolls? With my suggestion you couldn't avoid a natural roll of death without coming away with some injury instead. I think it's slightly less effective than the current apo, but you know the result every time. I like any chance to remove some of the randomness from tactical decisions.

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ArthurWynne



Joined: Sep 23, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 26, 2016 - 13:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Diving Catch already adds to hand-offs, doesn't it? For receiving purposes, a hand-off is considered an accurate pass, so as I read it, Diving Catch should apply.
mdd31



Joined: Oct 23, 2014

Post   Posted: Mar 26, 2016 - 13:43 Reply with quote Back to top

I certainly hope fumbbl never switches to this rule set. You just changed it around to favor the races you enjoy and hurt the races you don't like. Great job.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 26, 2016 - 14:12
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@ArthurWynne: I don't believe that is the case. I think in some older versions of the rules a hand-off was considered an accurate pass, but in CRP it's listed as a different action with it's own catching modifier.

@mdd31: That's certainly not the case at all. I don't even have a strong 'favourite' race. It boost a few races seen as poorer, and limits a few that are seen as too powerful. As you play mostly Nurgle I can see how you'd think that, if that was all you'd looked at. You seem to have played a lot with Dark Elves too though and I think they've gotten slightly stronger.

FUMBBL would never change to this ruleset anyway. That's why it's in the House Rules section. I'd be very surprised if the main FUMBBL divisions ever deviate from the official rules in any meaningful way.

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Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum
Patator



Joined: Jan 05, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 26, 2016 - 17:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Nice work Mr J ! I'd love to test this ruleset.

The + :
- kick off => more value to cheerleaders and assistants
- FF : fan factor should be 100% good
- throwing : yes ! More pass game ! It's my biggest regret in the current game.
- Pass block and safe throw : nice one. And I would go further by giving pass block a +1 to intercept.
- no more loner : yes big guys and positionals in general should be golden (eventualy a little costly if needed for balance)
- HE ! Bashy elves ! Great idea, great fluff.
- dark elves : nicely done !
- Nurgles : the other biggest change in team sinergy. As it is one of the most popular team i get the mixed feelings, but it is really intersting and original (not a "chaos with a tweak team)
- Chaos pact : a few tweaks to make it more specific
- Khemri : simple and effective. Good new skellies for undead too
- dwarves and cdwarves lossing tacle : yeah good one too.

The "mmm I like it but..."
- PO : I don't like it as it is and I like the "spirit" of your proposition but I think it would make it useless as you don't want to risk your main hitter to be banned.
- Sneaky git : yes but shouldnt it be limited at 1 or 2 per team, as you can have only one leader ?
- OTS : something to limit it yes, forbiding it, no.
- TV : to much a reduction. It would minimize the disparity of TV and favor the stronger while making a BIG drop in inducement.
-MB : need to be tested
- norse : meh. Not convinced.
Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: Mar 26, 2016 - 17:31 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:
Sorry it took a while to respond to this, I didn't notice it.

@Reisender: Thanks! The rosters were the first, and the main part of what I was trying to do. I wanted to create something that I could implement on FUMBBL and with custom rosters in the making I thought any changes that could be done on a roster level would be easy to implement. I'm hopefully going to run them as a league when it's possible.

I like the suggested goblin changes. I was trying to avoid making too many changes to rosters I was already happy with which is why I left Goblins mostly alone. I think there's merit in both options though.

I haven't been through each skill, so there are probably a bunch more that could be changed. The Rules changes were all added on afterwards, and though I've put them together they can work independently of the roster changes. I don't really like the idea of diving catch adding to hand-offs for thematic reasons though.

@bgh: The Mighty Blow change is in blue, so it's only a thought for now and not something I've considered too deeply. I think though that with the reduced effect of PO that Mb could get away with being a bit better. It doesn't need it perhaps, but I like attrition to be high in Blood Bowl and Mb is a skill that's widely available. Mb was +1 to both armour and injury in 3rd edition and wasn't really complained about, so I don't think it'd be too great a problem (but then DP was +2 +2 Very Happy)

@matthueycamo: I get what your point about one-turning, but while stopping it may lead to a dead turn 8 I really dislike the idea of not being able to oppose something. BB is turn based, and for one side to get a score with the other having no chance to counter it or respond just feels cheap.

I've heard the Apo complaing a number of times. I don't mind the current apo too much, I only addressed it as I'd seen it come up several times.
I think your example is a little flawed. There are no recorded stats on how many times that Legend has been saved from Death by an apo. Maybe those current injuries were apo re-rolls? With my suggestion you couldn't avoid a natural roll of death without coming away with some injury instead. I think it's slightly less effective than the current apo, but you know the result every time. I like any chance to remove some of the randomness from tactical decisions.


Those current injuries were fails on the apoth and he has not been saved from worse. My other Runner has been saved but that was before the plus AG roll. When it was near the end of a match and thought I might as well but at the time was not that bothered either way.

I like the randomness and RL shit happens, one day a Doctor saves a life the next they can't with a similar injury. Always working in the same way takes away some of that danger for me and makes it less exciting in the context of the sport fluff wise.

I really don't think one turning is like that. A team can spend 8 turns being bashed to crap only for them now not to be able to score their turn 8? Pretty much makes the 2-1 bash the only main stratergy but in a way that likely just leads to 1-1 a lot of the time with good coaches who cage and stall well. That is not gameplay enharnced by taking away one turners that is making everything more one dimensional. Making a game like that harms it rather than makes it better.

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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 26, 2016 - 19:07
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Matthueycamo wrote:
Those current injuries were fails on the apoth and he has not been saved from worse. My other Runner has been saved but that was before the plus AG roll. When it was near the end of a match and thought I might as well but at the time was not that bothered either way.

I like the randomness and RL shit happens, one day a Doctor saves a life the next they can't with a similar injury. Always working in the same way takes away some of that danger for me and makes it less exciting in the context of the sport fluff wise.

I really don't think one turning is like that. A team can spend 8 turns being bashed to crap only for them now not to be able to score their turn 8? Pretty much makes the 2-1 bash the only main stratergy but in a way that likely just leads to 1-1 a lot of the time with good coaches who cage and stall well. That is not gameplay enharnced by taking away one turners that is making everything more one dimensional. Making a game like that harms it rather than makes it better.


That may be the case, but one player isn't really a sample size.

Assuming that a SI is the equivalent of a death (which I know it isn't quite, but lots of people retire any injured players) then my apo is statistically worse. A death is as statistically likely as an injury (both 1/6 on the d6). The current apo has a 4/6 (66%) chance of recovering from either (MNG or better). My apo would have a 100% chance of reducing the SI and a 0% chance of reducing the death to a non-permanent injury, so 50% overall. So on average players will suffer more injuries.

The one-turn thing is only experimental so I don't want to discuss it too in-depth. I haven't decided yet whether it should apply to chain-pushes or not anyway. The original intention was just to stop natural 1-turners (Ma10 + sprint).

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Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum
Patator



Joined: Jan 05, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 29, 2016 - 18:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Reisender wrote:

Pass Block and Kick-off Return merge to new skill Anticipation -> gives you both the skills (G cause khemri and dwarves still need access) (still to be considered with your new passing rules which i havent fully thought through)

Diving Catch gives +1 on catching hand-offs too -> makes it a skill worth considering (which counterintuitively will also lead to more passing play as you cant always handoff), gives ag3 passing teams a real skill to simulate ag4 partly, and is still different enough from extra arms, and it makes slann a little bit better


I like those ideas and i would go as far as propose that diving catch gives +1 on a hand off or a clean pass. With your upgraded throwing rule ("Fumbles :The pass length modifier (-1 long pass, -2 long bomb) is not used when determining if a throw fumbles.") it would make diving tacle more interesting.

Other ideas, because really your proposition are interesting and inspiring, too consider or to ignore totally because I am not sure they are interesting / balanced :

- High elves : maybe a skill more on the catchers or the lions could help be a little bit more effective ?
On the catcher I want to say "pass block" because I love this almost useless skill (but actually if you take reisender proposition of a merge with kick-off return it could good). But maybe dodge en the catchers, or diving catch (but would take some unicness out of the slanns).
Or something on the lions : +1 av (those lion hide are supposed to be tough), or a skill like fend, tacle, stand firm, something that shouldn’t be core (block, dodge, guard, mb) but still be useful.

- about Chaos team. I agree with people saying it has been too nerfed. Now they don't have mutation access and PO has been nerfed. And 70K rr. The minotaur buff is not enough to compensate all this. Plus even actually i'm not under the impression that chaos win that much. I don't want to open the clawpomb discussion here but I think by nering PO + m access + rr, it's too hard on a team that is not that powerfull.
Yet I like the rr cost in line with the other teams, I like the clawpomb nerf and I understand the reasoning behind no standard M access.
I see only four options, none that I really like but it can be a start :

- give the warriors a skill to begin with. Of course i have no idea wich one : block is a NO with 4str base, mb, guard or stand firm would be too powerfull. Maybe you can "copy" simyin and take grab. Or thick skull to represent their high armor. Actually I have a crazy idea (hard to implement on fumbbl, helas) : to give them a random mutation as a start. It would go a little against the "less mutation chaos team", but it should be fun. And cost only +10K. I now this idea is probably broken but I like it too much not to tell it. ^^

- give beastmen a skill to begin with. Same story as for the warriors. Would maybe need to lower movement so they can be cheaper. I don't know. My crazy idea still sounds fun but would go too much against the "less mutation chaos team".

-create a new positional, something like a 0-2 ball carrier beastman (sure hand or big hand), or a "raider" (beastman + strip ball or tacle, or 7337 strip ball G access human raider)

- Lower the coast of chaos warriors by 10K. It's only a 40K difference (i dont like this idea but still had it so...)
kilinrax



Joined: Jan 12, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 29, 2016 - 19:35 Reply with quote Back to top

I've been thinking about Piling On as a foul, and whilst I like it, making it a straight foul I think nerfs the skill way too hard.

How about the following:

  1. Piling On is a block immediately followed by a foul, but one that is easier to hide from the referee (doubles on the injury roll don't get the player sent off) and more likely to injure, if the player is bigger than his opponent (add the difference between the Piling On player's Strength and his opponent's Strength, if it is greater, to the armour roll).
  2. Sneaky Git means the player is less likely to be sent off, and only for the most effective fouls (doubles on the armour roll don't get the player sent off).

These skills would stack, so in the (currently extremely unlikely) event that a player has both, they'd never get sent off for Piling On.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 29, 2016 - 21:38
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Thanks for the feedback, I'll try and reply to it all.

I don't like the idea of diving catch adding to receiving hand-offs as I think fluff is important with skills and I don't think there's a reason being able to dive for a ball should help you receive a ball placed in your hands. If a skill were going to do this it would probably be surehands. I think SH probably has enough benefits already though. The change to throwing should give diving catch a bit more usefulness anyway.

The High Elves I didn't really want to mess with as I've changed them a number of times already. I agree they're probably underpowered at low TV but I wanted them to be the slow-build elf team that can get strong later on.

The Chaos, well, believe it or not (as there have been a lot of comments that I've tried to destroy Chaos) in tabletop I've always been a Chaos player through all the LRBs from 3rd edition basic. I think that's part of the reason I find their current situation so disappointing. I think your point has merit. Part of the reason for this is that I did the rosters as a stand-alone thing first, with the idea of running them in full CRP. The rules mods came after. I still think they'll be fine though, personally. Where Chaos are currently awesome is at high TV. Most players are going to roll a double at some point throughout their careers (and current killstack + block is 4 rolls) so all it's going to do there is add 10TV to each player with claws. The re-rolls increase will be marginal at that level, most likely a 30TV increase. Teams are then encouraged to consider the minotaur as he now lacks Loner and has an extra AV. The reason Chaos are strong is because their basic stat-line is great, and that hasn't changed. Teams that start with a minotaur will be slightly better than current rookie Chaos, teams that don't will be worse by about 20-30TV.


The PO fouling thing is a change I like. I agree it nerfs the skill (that was the idea) but I don't think it's as bad as you say. Taking the rules as a whole, fouling now only sends you off if you double on the AV roll anyway, so they are less likely to get sent off than a current foul. It also stacks with DP and the +1 for making a foul. It won't be as widely taken, and it's probably useful on a different type of player. The fact it would no longer give SPPs might see it taken less too. I think it's a fun change. Maybe I'll change it to blue for now, but I'd love to test it and see how it went. Very Happy

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Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum
Patator



Joined: Jan 05, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 29, 2016 - 23:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Fluffwise for diving catch I'm imagining a situation like this, a situation i saw many times in rugby and sometimes on the few football game i watched : two guys running as fast as they can, adversaries all around and on give the ball to the other one whil the catch bend off toward the giver without loosing is balance a bit. So as much as diving catch allows to dive "out" of your square to get a missed pass, it also helps you catching a hand off or a perfect pass more easily.

I get the idea for HE. I love what you did and would be the first to try them if I could. Maybe ater some testing you'll come back at them.

As for chaos I'm not a chaos player so I can't really disagree with you (although I have read some different opinion on the matter).

For PO I really like what you did with it, but it changes completely the skill. Actually it should even be a general skill for even a gob can hurt you this way Very Happy For me it's not a problem but it is one of the most crucial skill in the actual meta so it is a MAJOR tweak.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 09, 2016 - 15:15
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Hi

It's been a while since I last updated this, but it's not because I've not been working on it. Well, sort of...

A couple of months ago when there seemed to be a frenzy house rule posts going up I was feeling particularly inspired. Me and WhatBall got chatting and decided to do a collaboration re-write of the full rulebook. Since that time WhatBall got busy and had to drop out, but I ran with it and several hours work later have the first full draft copy of MrJ's LRB7 completed. There's also a link in the opening post.

This isn't the same as what I've done before. It draws on a lot of those ideas, but this is many steps further. The original Notes page I'm leaving in place as the plan for that was always to make it FUMBBL compliant once Custom Rosters are allowed, and I still intend to turn it into a FUMBBL Ruleset and League when those options become available. This now is different. This is a full 'What would I do if re-writing the whole ruleset' document. WhatBall kindly provided the template he used for his WhatRuleBook which is great and made it much easier to get all my ideas in one place. I've left a few of WhatBall's changes in.

Note that this is still only the first draft, but I believe it's complete enough to show people. As noted at the start of the document, there are still a few things that need to be added. There may be contradictions in the document where I've missed editing things, and there may be imbalances as it's not yet had any testing. It's more of an ideal, but I'd love to give it a go sometime. I've attempted to combine my favourite bits of Blood Bowl throughout the years, and mix fluff and rules in a more cohesive way.

Any comments appreciated. Tell me if you love it, tell me if you hate it, tell me if you don't understand it Very Happy

Cheers o/

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