| Poll |
| Does this team need more positions? |
| Locks! Like a forward, but with Catch, VLL, Decay. |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Loosies! Tackle and MA 6, no Thick Skull obviously. |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Props! 4427, GS, last to everything, ... lovely chaps. |
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20% |
[ 1 ] |
| Can I just have two Ha'backs in my Halfling team, instead? |
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40% |
[ 2 ] |
| Sorry, the Forwards have already eaten all the pies. |
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40% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 5 |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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 Posted:
Jul 17, 2015 - 17:19 |
 
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Here's a team concept. Fluff: it's Rugby, isn't it. No, this is not a new concept, but I didn't think much of the ones I could find around the place for various reasons. This is about as skinny as I felt comfortable at this stage.
Rugby fluff is rugby rugby rugby rugby rugby rugby rugby rugby rugby rugby. You're either into it or it's as stupid of a game as it obviously is. Or isn't, as the case may be in your own mind.
| Code: |
0-16 Forwards 5 3 3 7 Wrestle, Thick Skull 50k G/ASP
0-2 Ha'backs 6 2 3 7 Stunty, Dodge, Sure Hands, Kick 70k AP/GS
0-2 Centers 6 3 3 7 Catch, Block, Dump Off 90k GS/AP
0-4 Backs 7 3 3 7 Catch, Dodge, Sprint 90k GA/SP |
The Backs have the 10k x4 discount (to negate the cost of sprint completely. Yay!).
Apothecary: yes.
Re-Rolls: 50k. They don't even have a Big Guy, no Strong, no Agile, basically human, just new play style.
Ha'backs are from the Ha'fling team, where they get the ball to the 'flings, who are then flung. Here the Ha's recover the ball from the pile of bodies that is the typical Forward engagement, duck out and hand off to a Centre, who blitzes up field with the ball, and if covered dumps off to a nearby Back (wing, fullback, whatever) to finish. Like rugby.
You might develop a fly Ha' as part of the hand-off dump-off chain with Catch and perhaps Pass, an option to cut through simple screens. Or a scrum Ha' as a tenacious ball retriever with Diving Tackle and Jump Up. Hail Mary Pass suits rugby for all the field-placement kicking, but it's not in every team's skill set.
The odd Forward learns to help out in the back line with Guard, most just get in the way out there and stick to supporting in any grind, so no strength skills (lying down hurt is half the game! Take Tackle on skill up, then retire).
The odd Centre can pass well, but most make things difficult for the outside Backs, Nerves of Steel would help greatly but young teams lack it and tend to run out a hand off, crowding the sidelines, or try to go it alone. People constantly stuffing up that last pass and fighting over the loose ball is a big part of real world rugby.
They're all perhaps over-statted like most of these things. But I think to let the coach even try rubgy-like plays with the ffb rules all of that is needed. Forwards tearing down the cage, Ha'back nicking the ball, Centres blitzing up with the ball, Backs finishing (or pulling a hamstring short of the line) as the forwards struggle to keep up, always lying on the ground well behind play.
Legendary wing backs would have Block, Sidestep, and Fend, +ST, +MA (n, n, n). A good fullback would get Tackle and Diving Tackle. Top centres get Nerves of Steel, Pass Block, Guard, and Stand Firm, great at getting in the way, a good few instead with Mighty Blow and Piling On known for their destructive tackles.
Thick Skull, you ask? It's a joke about actual rugby forwards. Most of them are really smart, because a lot of training for the higher levels of the game is very complicated. But the cauliflower ears, broken noses, and often bruised appearance give a certain something to them. Without AV 8 it helps a bit, and armour is strictly forbidden in rugby! Without the usual set-pieces they don't really need anything else.
Plus, it's a wrestle team! Just what the game needs. That and a 15-man game on a +2 wider pitch, and a ban on all that forward-pass nonsense. 
Star Players: Human, I guess. Should really have have a ...
7437 Back + Block, give you some chance to score against a huge team with a big blodger.
5437 Forward + Strip Ball, Guard, & Stand Firm, better anti-cage for tough cages.
6247 Ha'Back + Pass, if you want to play more like rugby, overcomes stunty issues there.
For 7's, you just don't play any Forwards, 4 Backs, 2 Centres, and 1 Ha'back would be Fairly accurate, ready to go.
--
Pure thinky-think, but real attack play would likely base heavily around Ha'back in a cage initially, Forwards and Centres busy trying to open holes, and the excess of catch skills are wasted (it's interesting that you can "safely" hand off to so many different targets, but modest movement probably hinders that).
Dump-Off can't really work initially, like the Dark Elf runner. But more skills to make it work is too much, and without Dump-Off you can't really pretend it's going to work much like Rugby. The centre can carry the ball, and Dump-Off can be a threat that makes your enemy spread their focus, Backs making an interesting cage for them but that's about it. Maybe discount the Centres and Ha'backs instead, but 60/80/100 makes the Backs look much worse, not bad with Sure Feet instead of Sprint, less of the joke about all the hamstrings though.  |
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DrPoods
Joined: Nov 14, 2013
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| Posted:
Jul 17, 2015 - 17:25 |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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I doesn't make sense for Centers to have S access and Forwards not have it.
I like the concept though, maybe just because I play |
_________________
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Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 17, 2015 - 21:19 |
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I think for a rugby team to play like a rugby team everybody needs dump off/catch. The skills aren't that powerful anyway, so you don't have to go crazy with the pricing.
Stunty is a definite no for me.
When Garion made the list, I felt he wanted each nation to be the same. Personally I feel he missed a trick here. It would have been much cooler (IMO) to do 6 nations, with each nation being slightly different. Cowhead's done a great job of the icons. At some point I half did an Albion Wanderers set based off of them.
I'd be interested in seeing somebody have a go at an American Football roster (somebody who knows about American Football). As there's a Raiders icon set kicking around that would be fun to use. |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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| Posted:
Jul 17, 2015 - 21:29 |
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goo would be into this
egg ballers |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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| Posted:
Jul 17, 2015 - 21:31 |
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Star Player
Joonah Loom-over-you 7639 Break Tackle, Stand Firm, Juggernaut, Special Skill: scares the buggery out of Mike Catt. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 18, 2015 - 02:20 |
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That's a good idea for a star. Catches the humour perfectly. |
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keggiemckill
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 18, 2015 - 04:19 |
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It looks solid. You should add some back row in there. Maybe a Big Guy 8 man. |
_________________
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nufflehatesme
Joined: Nov 02, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 18, 2015 - 05:37 |
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i like it.
i am with harvestmouse on the halfback, st2 should be enough to show he is smaller than his teammates. general skills may not be too much for them, but will lead to boring old block as 1st skill.
a big guy no8 would be cool. perhaps a st4 ag3 big guy could be interesting.
and maybe make the backs a 0-2 player, and 0-2 prop forwards for some strength skills on your forwards. same skills and stats as regular forwards, but av8 and strength access or something like that. could go ag2 as well just for fun
more NOS and dumpoff wouldnt hurt either halfback could swap kick for one of them.
rugby woot! |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 18, 2015 - 05:43 |
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Dunno,
I would limit the forwards to 0-8. Also only 1 half back... |
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Oscar Wilde |
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paradocks
Joined: Jun 14, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 18, 2015 - 07:08 |
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I have some issues from solely a fluff stand point..
I can't agree to a halfback positional being weaker, at the absolute very least he need to have dauntless. Plus I think he should have ag4 or two heads as halfbacks are the most skilled players on the field. They also NEED at least wrestle or block as a halfback is normally the best defender on a team also.
If it was up to me I'd forget about a "big guy" and make the halfback the pseudo big guy of the team.. size wise he is not the big guy but the halfback is always by far the most important member of any team so it would suit.
Also av7 feels a little too far fetched for me as rugby players (at least where i come from) never get hurt, or if they do get hurt they play on till the end of the game anyway.
This was a real halfback! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofisa_Tonu%27u |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 18, 2015 - 09:37 |
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Paradocks, you're talking about star player Ha'backs, internationals, Griff Oberwald (or Ofisa Tonu'u) types. This is just a rookie team. Some teams will end up with ST 3 or AG 4 or MA 7 or Strong Arm or Dauntless types.
I'm pretty sure the Stunty, Dodge, & Sure Hands combo would keep them very busy and be key players anyway, and the need for everyone else to protect them fits the fluff.
Fluff wise too, they've all got to be AV 7, from there Thick Skull helps a bit, as does Wrestle playing other Rugby teams, but Chaos Warriors covered in steel should murderise them. Except, immune to Claw!
| Quote: | | Stunty is a definite no for me. |
I know the feeling, they just ended up with almost exactly the stat line of my super-'fling, and stunty works so well for getting in for a pick up in heavy traffic. Low strength on scrum halves and fly halves, getting monstered by anyone else on the team when they get caught but usually ducking away, fly halves that cut the line, it all fits. Making them actual halflings rather than short humans is just part of the fantasy. Allies, like Goblins on the Orc team.
DrPoods, that 6 nations team. No. It's so wrong! And that's not just southern hemisphere (you know, the good one) bias talking. 
| Quote: | | I think for a rugby team to play like a rugby team everybody needs dump off/catch. |
There's very few players on a real team can do that, and mostly it's the centres (or 2nd five-eighth and centre, depending on local nomenclature). Forwards are notorious for not passing (and rarely catching) the ball at all. They just run it up (often fumbling the hand off or pick up), go to ground in a big pile, drop the ball, and then the halfback arrives in the mess and picks it up. We're not talking about a team of star players here, this is just the basics, as abstracted into an 8-turn half.
Play-wise, a hand off is the game mechanic that gets you to run into a TZ and get rid of the ball rather than Dump Off, the same function with less dice and less fuss with the player stats and skills. They certainly need a lot of Catch out wide though, and I have a Dump Off position for veterans to make use of.
Diving Tackle is all wrong on a Forward, the easiest people to run past are the Forwards! They shouldn't spread out to maximise that skill use, doesn't fit the flavour.
Down south at least, it's the Centres make the big hits that put people off the field, Mighty Blow, Piling On, where the Forwards are all big softies by comparison (other than the odd Dirty Player in the back of a ruck). The general skills suit forward-type play to my mind, even though they're "strong" people, it's more for the Fend, Strip Ball, Tackle, or Dauntless type actions: good fluff.
I'm not convinced about Dodge on the Backs either, thinking about other teams, makes it too easy to get Blodge on ST 3, which isn't really a human trick. Dodge is ST 2 on Human, except Amazons who are all supposed to be amazing.
| Code: | 0-16 Forwards 5 3 3 7 Wrestle, Thick Skull 50k G/ASP
0-2 Ha'backs 6 2 3 7 Stunty, Dodge, Sure Hands, Kick 70k AP/GS (includes a 10k discount)
0-2 Centres 6 3 3 7 Catch, Block, Dump Off 80k GS/AP (includes a 10k discount)
0-4 Backs 7 3 3 7 Catch, Sure Feet 90k GA/SP |
Then wings might take Dodge, Fend, and Sidestep, and the fullback get into Kick-Off Return and Sure Hands, or Tackle and Diving Tackle. Or you can still build a Blodger, but it's not automatic like with Elf catchers.
7537, (Catch, Sure Feet), +ST, +ST, Dodge, Juggernaut, Break Tackle. ~330k
ST 5 is sufficient for breaking through 2 men easily, or 3 with risk, which he could at his peak. Cheap at that too.
That's better team design I think, less skills, more flexibility, still gets the job done. The backs are useful over a Centre with the fairly safe 9 step move.
The Centers are probably too good at carrying the ball, which limits the need for Backs or anyone else, especially if they ended up 0-4. Backs could be 80k too most likely, but that's far too much discount without a bunch of playtest.
Must try a few test: games. |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 19, 2015 - 15:14 |
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More playtesting has shown ...
Dump-Off is awesome once you skill it up a bit, and there's still the problem even then of it maybe being better to hang onto the ball, especially starting with Block. Changed that to Wrestle for the "wrestle team". But against low-TV teams, 3+ to scatter the ball where your opponents can't get it, and 5+ to be accurate is still a pretty good strategy. It works so well when it comes off (basically always score), rarely hurts when it doesn't, and is very hard to cover. At 2+/3+, with NoS it becomes the team's whole strategy.
A whole team with that at the start seems, well, rather OP, it's pretty hard to stop.
All-Wrestle is crazy good against the Block teams, Dwarf and Norse and a lot of others after a few games. The real advantage comes when they're smashing you, takes away so many 2d blocks as you slowly Wrestle them down, opens up the lines for running. Best bit: someone without Block hits you, you can chose to end their team turn, such fun! 
The 7 Move on the Backs seemed a good idea with Sprint, but it gets them ahead of the play a long way with Sure Feet, which both looks wrong and doesn't really work well with the hand-off tactics. So 6337 is probably just as functional, looks right as a variant human, and suits the world fluff. Also keeps everyone in range for Dump Off and 2-turn TDs.
I'm coming around on Ha'backs. Losing stunty and making them 6237-Dodge leaves them sturdy enough, especially with General skill access, limits them as ball-carriers and bashers as desired for fluff, and the stunty ball-hunting isn't needed when the Forwards have done their job and cleared the way. Really, they just looked wrong wandering into enemy territory without the ball.
GP as against GAP on Halves? I want the Backs to be the Diving Tackle or Side Step types in the team. I want the Halves to focus on building a passing game (fluff as kick-and-chase, or a skip-pass to the Backs).
Kick is essential to the fluff (contesting kick-offs and such from the Halves is very rugby), but it's a bit overpriced on a 0-2. Discounted though. Basically, I don't want the skill getting stuck on a Forward later on.
I suspect the Backs should have ... another skill, and be 90k, or at least 80k. I don't like Wrestle for them, they play quite vulnerable without it, looking for open space and good screens. A lot of ideas I've had seem pretty overpowered (Fend, Dodge, Sidestep), especially after adding to it on skill-up. They're already a pretty cheesy team in a lot of ways.
Not that I'm necessarily the best to pick any problems, so if anyone else wants a go .... Not that this is going anywhere.
| Code: | 0-16 Forwards 5 3 3 7 Wrestle, Thick Skull 50k G/ASP
0-2 Halves 6 2 3 7 Dodge, Sure Hands, Kick 70k GP/AS
0-2 Centres 6 3 3 7 Catch, Wrestle, Dump Off 80k GS/AP
0-4 Backs 6 3 3 7 Catch, Sure Feet 70k GA/SP
Rerolls 50k.
Star Players:
Gon'a Ova'u 7 5 3 7 Catch, Sure Feet, Dodge, 370k
Juggernaut, Break Tackle.
Jiminy Wilkers 6 2 4 7 Dodge, Sure Hands, Kick, 200k
Accurate, Pass, Nerves of Steel.
Harry Nord Guy 6 3 3 7 Wrestle, Thick Skull, 180k
Block, Frenzy, Jump Up.
Stirling Mortlock sort of just works, doesn't it?
6 3 3 7 Catch, Wrestle, Dump Off, 220k
Dodge, Fend, Nerves of Steel,
Pass Block, Sure Feet, Tackle.
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Just spit-balling the star players, old memories. Is there a Forward known for little other than foul play? Needs a cheap dirty-player star.
Still testing, it's an interesting process, how obvious changes jump out at you against various teams. Need to try vs Skaven and Lizardmen, and Khemri come to think of it. |
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DrPoods
Joined: Nov 14, 2013
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| Posted:
Jul 19, 2015 - 15:28 |
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Whatchoo talkin' bout Tussock??
I AM Southern hemisphere...  |
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Cocinero
Joined: Sep 14, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 19, 2015 - 17:45 |
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I think a rugby team should be very different. I think like a team that try to play rugby and don't realize that it's playing another sport.
I have put some ideas in this thread. |
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